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Top 5 Penn State wrestlers of all time

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7 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Very bold.  And justifiable. 

Please explain how.

1 guy is 134-3 with 2 titles (2 Hodge trophies), 2 runner ups and 4X big ten champion with 2 of his 3 losses to 4X champ Dake by 1 point

the other guy is 99-9 with 2 titles (no Hodge trophies), 1 runner up and 1 DNC, no big ten titles and losses to Keaton Subjeck, Isaac Jordan and 3 losses to Alex Marinelli none of whom are even a national champion.

Sorry it’s not even close.  I didn’t even consider bonus points which would widen the gap.  Of the Sanderson era, there is no way Taylor is worse than 5th if college only.  He’s easily number 1, if including international.

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On 6/18/2020 at 12:12 AM, Perry said:

1. Zain Retherford (likely 4x undefeated if he didn't go as a true frosh) 5,1,1,1 2x Hodge

2. DT 2,1,2,1 2x Hodge

3. Nolf

4. Ruth

5. Nickal

This seems about right.  Could potentially swap Taylor and Zain.  Taylor was a more complete wrestler in my view.  Outside of Dake, I can’t remember a match that was ever in doubt.  

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On 6/18/2020 at 12:12 AM, Perry said:

1. Zain Retherford (likely 4x undefeated if he didn't go as a true frosh) 5,1,1,1 2x Hodge

2. DT 2,1,2,1 2x Hodge

3. Nolf

4. Ruth

5. Nickal

This seems about right.  Could potentially swap Taylor and Zain.  Taylor was a more complete wrestler in my view.  Outside of Dake, I can’t remember a match that was ever in doubt.  

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

Please explain how.

1 guy is 134-3 with 2 titles (2 Hodge trophies), 2 runner ups and 4X big ten champion with 2 of his 3 losses to 4X champ Dake by 1 point

the other guy is 99-9 with 2 titles (no Hodge trophies), 1 runner up and 1 DNC, no big ten titles and losses to Keaton Subjeck, Isaac Jordan and 3 losses to Alex Marinelli none of whom are even a national champion.

Sorry it’s not even close.  I didn’t even consider bonus points which would widen the gap.  Of the Sanderson era, there is no way Taylor is worse than 5th if college only.  He’s easily number 1, if including international.

I respect the opinion of CementMixer103, but it is not mine.  My cause for pause with him is the sweet wins over IMar when it really counted - Taylor can't match that, despite having opportunities.  Not my list, so take it up with him.

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I am definitely partial to Nolf.  I have been adamant that he deserved a Hodge and he was an IMar away from being a 4x undefeated(not counting the injury default) Champ.

I know the controversial Hidlay match took the shine off for some of you.  But, he won the match and there is NO WAY to say he wouldn't have still won if that sequence was scored differently.

To me, 2,1,1,1 with his only real losses being as a freshman, to a guy that went 1,1,2,2, whom he also pinned, trumps anything the others did.

With that said, going simply off DI results, I would go:

1.) Nolf

2.)Retherford

3.)Ruth

4.)Taylor

5.)Nickal

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2 hours ago, Greatdane67 said:

Retherford and Taylor with 2 Hodge Trophies each.

McCoy and Nickal with 1 each.

Hard to put anyone over these 4.

 

 

McCoy is in the conversation only if you at peak performance, not complete career.  

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On 6/17/2020 at 5:38 PM, Antitroll2828 said:

Nolf career loses -Imar big 10 finals his freshman year then the ncaa finals and the inj def to van brill in the dual his junior year 

Zain- lost steibler in the big tens and ncaa semis, then dropped a wrestle back to Port I believe 

Nickel- lost Nate Jackson and Myles his freshman year and dropped a big semi to Martin his sophomore year 

Taylor- Jenkins in his freshman final and Dake in his junior year final and scuffle that year ( and the all star meet, but that didn’t count towards there records) 

Ruth- was 2 seed his freshman year and lost to Amuchastegui in the quarters and came back for 3rd and his next lose was his senior year scuffle to freshman Gabe dean 

Just amazing careers for all these guys.  I see four losses combined (discounting Nolf's inj. def.) after their FR years and 13 total losses against guys that had 14 combined DI titles

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35 minutes ago, Jim L said:

McCoy is in the conversation only if you at peak performance, not complete career.  

I disagree a bit. McCoy wrestled 190 his freshman year, his losses at NCAAs were to the eventual champion and 5th place finisher. When he was no longer sucking weight he went 131-1 with an 88 match winning streak.

As a senior he was awarded the Hodge Trophy and WIN Magazines wrestler of the year award.

Those last 3 years were a career, not peak performance.

Regarding Top 5, MSUs look to be a fair collection and order:

1.) Nolf

2.)Retherford

3.)Ruth

4.)Taylor

5.)Nickal

I might swap Nickal & Taylor and I'd also throw in Cenzo as a supernumerary. As a freshman, he gave a 2X NCAA champion the first loss of that wrestlers career in the final match of that guys Jr year - and pinned him in the process.  He won just as many titles as Taylor and was well on his way to another finals appearance this past season.  That's no slight on Taylor.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

I am definitely partial to Nolf.  I have been adamant that he deserved a Hodge and he was an IMar away from being a 4x undefeated(not counting the injury default) Champ.

I know the controversial Hidlay match took the shine off for some of you.  But, he won the match and there is NO WAY to say he wouldn't have still won if that sequence was scored differently.

To me, 2,1,1,1 with his only real losses being as a freshman, to a guy that went 1,1,2,2, whom he also pinned, trumps anything the others did.

With that said, going simply off DI results, I would go:

1.) Nolf

2.)Retherford

3.)Ruth

4.)Taylor

5.)Nickal

Didn't Retherford do almost the exact same thing with a better win (Stieber) and as a true freshman, whereas Nolf had the redshirt?  Retherford with the extra loss to Port (the 1 seed), but obviated by wrestling as a true frosh, and was more dominant throughout the rest of their collegiate careers.

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19 minutes ago, PSUSMC said:

I disagree a bit. McCoy wrestled 190 his freshman year, his losses at NCAAs were to the eventual champion and 5th place finisher. When he was no longer sucking weight he went 131-1 with an 88 match winning streak.

As a senior he was awarded the Hodge Trophy and WIN Magazines wrestler of the year award.

Those last 3 years were a career, not peak performance.

Regarding Top 5, MSUs look to be a fair collection and order:

1.) Nolf

2.)Retherford

3.)Ruth

4.)Taylor

5.)Nickal

I might swap Nickal & Taylor and I'd also throw in Cenzo as a supernumerary. As a freshman, he gave a 2X NCAA champion the first loss of that wrestlers career in the final match of that guys Jr year - and pinned him in the process.  He won just as many titles as Taylor and was well on his way to another finals appearance this past season.  That's no slight on Taylor.

Leaving McCoy off because of he had a FR year that was not outstanding is more of a comment on how awesome the other five are more than a knock on Kerry's career. 

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4 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Didn't Retherford do almost the exact same thing with a better win (Stieber) and as a true freshman, whereas Nolf had the redshirt?  Retherford with the extra loss to Port (the 1 seed), but obviated by wrestling as a true frosh, and was more dominant throughout the rest of their collegiate careers.

I don’t know that Retherford really was more dominant nor do I think his level of competition was nearly as good his last 3 seasons. Also, 5th is not “almost the exact same thing” as 2nd. 

What Retherford did as a TF was special, but he was controlled by Stieber the last 2 times, while IMar squeaked both out. 

With that said, I wouldn’t fight over a 1a-1b for both and can definitely see an argument for Zain. 

 

Edited to add:

Nolf:  2019- 31-0 with 27 bonus wins. His 4 regular decisions were 10-4 over Berger, 9-2 and 7-1 over Pantaleo and 3-2 over Hidlay. He had 15 falls, 1 inj., 5tfs and 6 MD’s. 

2018-26-1 with default to Van Brill.  He basically came back on 1 leg and won it all rather easily. He had 16 falls, 3tfs, 3 mds and the 4 decisions were Pantaleo 6-4,  Crone 6-1, Kemerer 6-2 and Hidlay 6-2

2017-27-0 with 14 Falls, 8tfs, 3 mds and the 2 decisions were Kemerer 9-4 and 8-2.

So, essentially Nolf had 2 close matches his last 3 seasons.  Hidlay 3-2 and Pantaleo 6-4.  Out of 84 wins:  45 Falls, 16 TFs and 12 MD's.  

 

Retherford:  2018- 30-0 with 26 bonus wins.  His 4 regular decisions were Ronnie Perry 6-2, Heillman 10-4 and Sorenson 2-0 and 6-2.  He had 17 Falls, 5 TF's and 4 MD's.

2017-27-0 with 25 bonus wins.  His 2 regular decisions were both Sorenson 2-1 and 9-8OT.  He had 17 Falls, 7 TF's and 1 MD.

2016-34-0 with 30 bonus wins.  HIs 4 regular decisions were Theobold 8-1, Clagon 2-1, Collica 4-1 and Sorenson 4-0.  He had 15Falls, 8 TF's and 7 MD's.

 

So, side by side:  

Retherford 91-0 with 49 Falls, 20 TF's and 12 MD's.   Bonus 81 out of 91.  His close matches were Clagon 2-1, Sorenson 9-8OT, 2-1, 2-0 and Collica 4-1.

Nolf  84-1(inj def.)  with 45 Falls, 16 TF's and 12 MD's.  Bonus 73 out of 85.  3 of Nolf's decisions came after the injury.  He missed 5 matches due to that injury in 2018 and 3 of his 4 decisions that season came after the injury.    His close matches were Pantaleo 6-4 and Hidlay 3-2.

 

Edited by MSU158

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25 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Leaving McCoy off because of he had a FR year that was not outstanding is more of a comment on how awesome the other five are more than a knock on Kerry's career. 

Indeed, at first I was going to comment that he's in the mix but quite frankly even though he won EIGHTY EIGHT matches in a row he can't reach the top5.

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On 6/18/2020 at 6:45 AM, buck said:

To, too, two.  These three words cause some of the most common grammar problems as they are commonly misspelled or used wrong.  

I guess English class is in session.....watch our for "Grammar Patrol"!

 

Edited by fadzaev2

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2 hours ago, PSUSMC said:

I might swap Nickal & Taylor and I'd also throw in Cenzo as a supernumerary. As a freshman, he gave a 2X NCAA champion the first loss of that wrestlers career in the final match of that guys Jr year - and pinned him in the process.  He won just as many titles as Taylor and was well on his way to another finals appearance this past season.  That's no slight on Taylor.

Cenzo gave Imar his  2nd And 3rd loses, nolf pinned him in the dual the year before 

cenzo also dropped a match to subject from Stanford and went to overtime or wrestled 1 point matches with a lot of guys while Taylor was out teching everyone not named dake for most of his career 

Edited by Antitroll2828

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13 hours ago, Cementmixer103 said:

Best PSU wrestles ever

Nolf

Retherford

Nickal

Ruth

Joseph

 

Sorry Taylor..

 

I think @Cementmixer103 raises a good point.  If the 2020 NCAA's weren't cancelled due to covid, Cenzo would have a good argument for making this list.  And I do think Cenzo would have won NCAA's at 165.  Kinda hard to argue against 1121 at NCAA's.  

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7 hours ago, tightwaist said:

This seems about right.  Could potentially swap Taylor and Zain.  Taylor was a more complete wrestler in my view.  Outside of Dake, I can’t remember a match that was ever in doubt.  

Seemed to be in doubt when he was getting decked by Bubba.

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7 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

I respect the opinion of CementMixer103, but it is not mine.  My cause for pause with him is the sweet wins over IMar when it really counted - Taylor can't match that, despite having opportunities.  Not my list, so take it up with him.

Well you did state it was justifiable, so I was just wondering how?

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It’s crazy how many of you have Nickal #5.  All 5 are great and certainly interchangeable to an extent based on preference.  
 

That being said he’s #1 for me for several reasons.  Honestly, he probably has the best and most good wins.  He was absolutely untouched as a junior and senior (where the others all had close ones or losses).  He also won a U23 World title right after college. 

His senior year he pinned all other opponents ranked in the top 5.

For me, looking at college career and highest level reached while in college I’d go:

#1 Nickal

#2 Nolf

#3 Taylor

#4 Ruth

#5 Retherford

 

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4 hours ago, MSU158 said:

I don’t know that Retherford really was more dominant nor do I think his level of competition was nearly as good his last 3 seasons. Also, 5th is not “almost the exact same thing” as 2nd. 

What Retherford did as a TF was special, but he was controlled by Stieber the last 2 times, while IMar squeaked both out. 

With that said, I wouldn’t fight over a 1a-1b for both and can definitely see an argument for Zain. 

 

Edited to add:

Nolf:  2019- 31-0 with 27 bonus wins. His 4 regular decisions were 10-4 over Berger, 9-2 and 7-1 over Pantaleo and 3-2 over Hidlay. He had 15 falls, 1 inj., 5tfs and 6 MD’s. 

2018-26-1 with default to Van Brill.  He basically came back on 1 leg and won it all rather easily. He had 16 falls, 3tfs, 3 mds and the 4 decisions were Pantaleo 6-4,  Crone 6-1, Kemerer 6-2 and Hidlay 6-2

2017-27-0 with 14 Falls, 8tfs, 3 mds and the 2 decisions were Kemerer 9-4 and 8-2.

So, essentially Nolf had 2 close matches his last 3 seasons.  Hidlay 3-2 and Pantaleo 6-4.  Out of 84 wins:  45 Falls, 16 TFs and 12 MD's.  

 

Retherford:  2018- 30-0 with 26 bonus wins.  His 4 regular decisions were Ronnie Perry 6-2, Heillman 10-4 and Sorenson 2-0 and 6-2.  He had 17 Falls, 5 TF's and 4 MD's.

2017-27-0 with 25 bonus wins.  His 2 regular decisions were both Sorenson 2-1 and 9-8OT.  He had 17 Falls, 7 TF's and 1 MD.

2016-34-0 with 30 bonus wins.  HIs 4 regular decisions were Theobold 8-1, Clagon 2-1, Collica 4-1 and Sorenson 4-0.  He had 15Falls, 8 TF's and 7 MD's.

 

So, side by side:  

Retherford 91-0 with 49 Falls, 20 TF's and 12 MD's.   Bonus 81 out of 91.  His close matches were Clagon 2-1, Sorenson 9-8OT, 2-1, 2-0 and Collica 4-1.

Nolf  84-1(inj def.)  with 45 Falls, 16 TF's and 12 MD's.  Bonus 73 out of 85.  3 of Nolf's decisions came after the injury.  He missed 5 matches due to that injury in 2018 and 3 of his 4 decisions that season came after the injury.    His close matches were Pantaleo 6-4 and Hidlay 3-2.

 

In 2017 his 2-1 match was against Collica not sorenson, he won the crazy one against sorenson at Carver 9-8 3 O.T.s when Cael came out and said Zain apparently had 101 fever ,then he pinned sorenson in the first period in the ncaa semis in the only other match up they had that year  ...the collica match was the last national duals match up where suriano broke his ankle. Zain kept putting in double boots and collica came standing straight up and the ref had no idea who to call stalling on 

pretty sure they changed the rules the next season because of that exact situation with Zain 

Edited by Antitroll2828

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1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

In 2017 his 2-1 match was against Collica not sorenson, he won the crazy one against sorenson at Carver 9-8 3 O.T.s when Cael came out and said Zain apparently had 101 fever ,then he pinned sorenson in the first period in the ncaa semis in the only other match up they had that year  ...the collica match was the last national duals match up where suriano broke his ankle. Zain kept putting in double boots and collica came standing straight up and the ref had no idea who to call stalling on 

pretty sure they changed the rules the next season because of that exact situation with Zain 

Yeah, I remember that match, just thought it was the 4-1 I had in a different year. I looked these up and added them periodically while getting my haircut after 3 months. So, I have no problem admitting the likelihood a mistake was made!

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9 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Yeah, I remember that match, just thought it was the 4-1 I had in a different year. I looked these up and added them periodically while getting my haircut after 3 months. So, I have no problem admitting the likelihood a mistake was made!

Lol wasn’t try to call you out I just remember that collica match and a lot of people complaining enough afterwords that they changed the rule and now the top gets hit for stalling...It was a 7 minute match that probably lasted 20 minutes 

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