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Fresno St. under investigation

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6 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Shp, I'm not going to look up specifically (you might come up with it) but I would suggest it would be considered a benefit not available to the student population in general. Also, I believe this mentioned recruits (?) so I think there are restrictions of where you can entertain them relative to campus.

Just skimmed the article. They list a series of scenarios that are illegal according to the school handbook. Adult entertainment listed. Age of recruits irrelevant.

The only thing I could think of is that it was a violation of institutional policy. Other than that, I'm stumped...a search of the three-letter word that's a synonym for gender came up with one completely unrelated match in the entire handbook.

Edit to add: The restrictions relative to campus involves a 30-mile radius from campus where they can go. 30 miles from Fresno is Visalia, Lemoore, and not very much else.

Edited by SetonHallPirate

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29 minutes ago, SetonHallPirate said:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D120.pdf

If somebody can point me to where in here such a thing is against the rules, please let me know, because I'm not seeing it.

I didn't see anything in the NCAA publication - but the article states it's part of the FSU code of conduct. Here is another article that has a few more details. As stated by another poster , adult entertainment provided on an official recruiting visit is a violation.

https://collegian.csufresno.edu/2020/06/fresno-state-wrestling-holds-independent-review-faces-stripper-allegations/#.Xu6cCy2ZPPA

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You won’t find it explicitly called out in the rules. It would definitely fall under bylaw 10 where it talks about unethical conduct. It would also fall under impermissible benefits (13.2) and more if it was a coach or staff member paying for it. 

Another factor is if the kids were of age at the party. Obviously they weren’t for alcohol, but decent chance they weren’t for the stripper as well.

It’s easier to the read the NCAA rules as if everything is denied unless the NCAA says it is allowed. They can’t possibly put every circumstance in there, so it often give examples that “aren’t limited to.”


It is almost always called out in the code of conduct of a university as mentioned. Probably conference rules as well. 

Edited by PinFallRecruit
Add bylaw and extra info

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4 hours ago, ionel said:

Have you not heard of the NCAA and rules?  

I have, but if the school didn't pay for it, and a couple of adults paid an exotic dancer to dance, I dont see how the NCAA would have a leg to stand on; especially if its not clearly outlined in the rules.

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape. Its ridiculous how much power the NCAA has over the students.

Edited by russelscout

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5 hours ago, russelscout said:

I have, but if the school didn't pay for it, and a couple of adults paid an exotic dancer to dance, I dont see how the NCAA would have a leg to stand on; especially if its not clearly outlined in the rules.

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape. Its ridiculous how much power the NCAA has over the students.

Alums/boosters are under NCAA regs also.

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I didnt see where there was a booster and alum involved.

I didn't say there was. I was simply referring to your hypothetical- " and a couple of adults paid an exotic dancer to dance"

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7 hours ago, russelscout said:

I have, but if the school didn't pay for it, and a couple of adults paid an exotic dancer to dance, I dont see how the NCAA would have a leg to stand on; especially if its not clearly outlined in the rules.

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape. Its ridiculous how much power the NCAA has over the students.

Even if the school didn't pay, the athletes on the team likely violated NCAA and university policy by doing this. Sure, breaking university policy on recruiting trips likely frequently happens, but when you get caught you are still in trouble.  If the coach knew what was going on, he is going to get fired (like Rick Pitino). Also, I don't know why you are assuming the recruits were 18+, since official visits are often end of junior year/early senior year, and not everybody repeats 8th grade. 

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44 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Even if the school didn't pay, the athletes on the team likely violated NCAA and university policy by doing this. Sure, breaking university policy on recruiting trips likely frequently happens, but when you get caught you are still in trouble.  If the coach knew what was going on, he is going to get fired (like Rick Pitino). Also, I don't know why you are assuming the recruits were 18+, since official visits are often end of junior year/early senior year, and not everybody repeats 8th grade. 

Where did I say the recruits were definitely 18 or older? 

Edited by russelscout

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9 hours ago, russelscout said:

I have, but if the school didn't pay for it, and a couple of adults paid an exotic dancer to dance, I dont see how the NCAA would have a leg to stand on; especially if its not clearly outlined in the rules.

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape. Its ridiculous how much power the NCAA has over the students.

That's in the rules: supporters, donors etc can't provide a benefit.  But even if it weren't an NCAA thing, still a major problem for the university.

Edited by ionel

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15 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Where did I say the recruits were definitely 18 or older? 

You said the following on page 1:  "I guess I dont see how a stripper is an issue at all if everyone is 18."

Most recruits are likely 17 at the time of the recruiting trip.  

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So some are ASSUMING that some of the party attendee's were in fact under 18 and others are ASSUMING that all the party attendee's were in fact over 18.  And you guys are arguing about it??  Let's get back to arguing about important stuff.  Ha!

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11 minutes ago, dman115 said:

So some are ASSUMING that some of the party attendee's were in fact under 18 and others are ASSUMING that all the party attendee's were in fact over 18.  And you guys are arguing about it??  Let's get back to arguing about important stuff.  Ha!

I am not assuming anything. Someone was just antsy to jump on me and lecture about 17 year olds as if I dont understand how that works.

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

I am not assuming anything. Someone was just antsy to jump on me and lecture about 17 year olds as if I dont understand how that works.

As you can see, I'm not the only person that can't figure out where your goalposts are on this subject. 

So about the only scenario that might fit your "plan" and that might not be blatantly illegal NCAA-wise is something like this.

A few adults that have absolutely no connection with the relevant institution (Fresno here as per OP) miraculously happen to be at the same establishment at the very next table as the completely somber Fresno group is. They pay for alcohol and a stripper for their own purposes and merely by happenstance the Fresno group is now set up to look like they are involved.

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2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

As you can see, I'm not the only person that can't figure out where your goalposts are on this subject. 

So about the only scenario that might fit your "plan" and that might not be blatantly illegal NCAA-wise is something like this.

Here: 

14 hours ago, russelscout said:

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape.

I dont know how to make it clearer. To summarize my opinion, I think this is all petty and another example of NCAA trying to do too much. Thats it. Maybe if you werent so desperate to have a "gotchya" moment, you wouldnt get so confused.

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Here: 

I dont know how to make it clearer. To summarize my opinion, I think this is all petty and another example of NCAA trying to do too much. Thats it. Maybe if you werent so desperate to have a "gotchya" moment, you wouldnt get so confused.

You sound like our president- say something, two minutes later say something else. Then have someone say how clear he was on this. (At least you did it yourself). I wasn't trying to do a gotcha. I simply responded to something you said that I quoted that you denied.

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15 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

You sound like our president- say something, two minutes later say something else. Then have someone say how clear he was on this. (At least you did it yourself). I wasn't trying to do a gotcha. I simply responded to something you said that I quoted that you denied.

Once again:

14 hours ago, russelscout said:

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape. Its ridiculous how much power the NCAA has over the students.

what dont you get?

I didnt back track at all. I said "if"(Keyword there. Dont forget it) everyone was 18, and the school didnt have anything to do with it, I dont think they schould be able to do anything. I didnt say anything about them being under 18 bc that is a different issue.

Now before you lose it and get off on trying to win on a forum:

14 hours ago, russelscout said:

Dont get me wrong though. Im more commenting on what I would like to see and not discussing the current landscape. Its ridiculous how much power the NCAA has over the students.

Is that enough times for me to point that out?

I sound like the president? because I made one comment and clarified my position and stuck with it? Youre  coming accross as desperate to me.

Edited by russelscout

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12 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Once again:

what dont you get?

I didnt back track at all. I said "if"(Keyword there. Dont forget it) everyone was 18, and the school didnt have anything to do with it, I dont think they schould be able to do anything. I didnt say anything about them being under 18 bc that is a different issue.

Now before you lose it and get off on trying to win on a forum:

Is that enough times for me to point that out?

Not going any further here. One thing I said was that I wasn't the only one that seemed to be seeing the same things. I thought of making the one post last night and held off until this morning. I noticed a few others commenting on what you said and then you saying things like - Oh, I was talking about 18+, or IF was the operative term.

I'm a computer programmer. I've designed a few systems in my time. One thing I learned was this- if 100 people try it out and nobody had an issue good for me (although I'm sure someone will come along and do otherwise- or my favorite- you can't build an idiot-proof system as someone will build a better idiot). If a couple people have a problem, it's likely their fault. If several have a problem it's my fault.

Edited by gimpeltf

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9 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Not going any further here. One thing I said was that I wasn't the only one that seemed to be seeing the same things. I thought of making the one post last night and held off until this morning. I noticed a few others commenting on what you said and then you saying things like - Oh, I was talking about 18+, or IF was the operative term.

I'm a computer programmer. I've designed a few systems in my time. One thing I learned was this- if 100 people try it out and nobody had an issue good for you (although I'm sure someone will come along and do otherwise- or my favorite- you can't build an idiot-proof system as someone will build a better idiot). If a couple people have a problem, it's likely their fault. If several have a problem it's my fault.

It's ALL your fault............EVERYTHING :)

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38 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Not going any further here. One thing I said was that I wasn't the only one that seemed to be seeing the same things. I thought of making the one post last night and held off until this morning. I noticed a few others commenting on what you said and then you saying things like - Oh, I was talking about 18+, or IF was the operative term.

I'm a computer programmer. I've designed a few systems in my time. One thing I learned was this- if 100 people try it out and nobody had an issue good for you (although I'm sure someone will come along and do otherwise- or my favorite- you can't build an idiot-proof system as someone will build a better idiot). If a couple people have a problem, it's likely their fault. If several have a problem it's my fault.

If calling an 18 year old an adult which the law defines it as or the implications of the meaning of the word "if" is just to confusing for you, then I dont know what to tell you. Yes, others may have questioned me, but once I clarified what I meant it was no biggie because I didnt disagree with them. 

You on the other hand just jump at an opportunity to compare me to a president you obviously dont like, and accuse me of moving the goalposts even though I simply added clarification that makes sense i.e. adults under the law are 18 and I meant adult as the literal/legal interpretation or "if" implies that the criteria I stated must be met before the rest of the statements are true. Neither are backtracked, but it needed some clarification. You refusal to accept that at face value like everyone else just shows how desperate you are to "win".

Your comparison to programming is silly though. A system is not the same as a single isolated comment. I imagine systems are not finished off the cuff in some quick manner. It probably takes weeks, months, years to do something perfect(idk, im not a programmer). A statement thrown out there is not the same, and some people are mature enough to have back and forth convos like adults. You on the other hand take peoples words as final to your own interpretation, so you can try to win the argument. Grow up.

Congrats on being a computer programmer though. Pretty obvious what kind of person we are dealing with here when it took you 12 hours to find a way to shoehorn in your career which you are oh so proud of as some kind of evidence for why I am out of line. 

 

Edited by russelscout

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On 6/20/2020 at 7:25 PM, SetonHallPirate said:

The only thing I could think of is that it was a violation of institutional policy. Other than that, I'm stumped...a search of the three-letter word that's a synonym for gender came up with one completely unrelated match in the entire handbook.

Edit to add: The restrictions relative to campus involves a 30-mile radius from campus where they can go. 30 miles from Fresno is Visalia, Lemoore, and not very much else.

http://www.fresnostate.edu/academics/senate/documents/RecruitingPolicy.Updated.pdf

 

Thats an old guide on Fresno State institutional guidelines for recruitment.  
 

It’s pretty standard for all schools to have a policy that explicitly mentions adult entertainment as being not permitted. 
 

edit: here is an example from Michigan State’s which has to be signed. https://msu.edu/~msuncaa/Final Recruitment Policy 8.05.pdf

Edited by Pinnum

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15 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

http://www.fresnostate.edu/academics/senate/documents/RecruitingPolicy.Updated.pdf

 

Thats an old guide on Fresno State institutional guidelines for recruitment.  
 

It’s pretty standard for all schools to have a policy that explicitly mentions adult entertainment as being not permitted. 
 

edit: here is an example from Michigan State’s which has to be signed. https://msu.edu/~msuncaa/Final Recruitment Policy 8.05.pdf

Thanks Pinnum...tried to look for it on the Fresno State athletics website, got nowhere...obviously because it was on the institutional website.

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