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Potential for no Greco in 2024 Olympics?

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On 6/23/2020 at 6:43 PM, GoNotQuietly said:

 

In many ways, being freed from the IOC would be a massive improvement in and of itself.  

 

On 6/23/2020 at 6:47 PM, LJB said:

i don't disagree with that at all...

the IOC does not know or care about wrestling and i think we (wrestling) spends too much time acquiescing to them...

I believe in alot of ways this could be true but I would worry about participation around the world.  Many, and much more outside the US, become lifers in this sport via dreaming of Olympic Gold.  The history of the sport in the games is a big part of a number of these cultures.  And as stated Greco is the most original and popular form when looking around the world.  If I had a vote, I would prefer even five weights in the games, opposed to not being in the games and having all ten weights for that fourth year of each cycle.  Just my opinon.

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On 6/21/2020 at 7:12 PM, GoNotQuietly said:

One thing I would like to see is a MUCH smaller mat.  This is an idea Ivan Ivanov had to create the pushing necessary to create big throws, and the increase in action when we do it in the room is jaw-dropping.

This is an interesting suggestion that I think preserves what Greco is at its core. 

Do you know of any matches wrestled with the smaller mat?

I would be curious in watching some matches, if there has been a Test Event, to see how the dynamic changed. 

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This is an interesting suggestion that I think preserves what Greco is at its core. 
Do you know of any matches wrestled with the smaller mat?
I would be curious in watching some matches, if there has been a Test Event, to see how the dynamic changed. 

We host a freestyle and Greco festival we were planning on testing it at, but who knows when we will be able to


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On 6/22/2020 at 8:27 PM, MadMardigain said:

Adding in the “dirty greco” idea of leg trips/sweeps (just no hand holds on the legs) would open up more movement and attacks which at least spices it up some from a viewers standpoint.  I’d rather go with that than going the route of eliminating greco complete.

Mad, is this a thing? I suggested this on FRL many moons ago (i think after the Rio debacle). But I never knew there was a name or movement for it. I'd love to see it.

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On 6/21/2020 at 4:30 PM, LJB said:

As always...

there is absolutely nothing wrong with Greco other than the ignorance and fear...

Fake news. There's a giant problem with Greco as a consumer product.

Same with MLB. 2-1 forced par terre scores (what we literally got in  Rio) is as consumable to the masses as 9-inning 4hr ball games.

I love them. But most people don't. and the IOC is going the way of the X Games.

do the math. Greco is getting bounced. 

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24 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Fake news. There's a giant problem with Greco as a consumer product.

Same with MLB. 2-1 forced par terre scores (what we literally got in  Rio) is as consumable to the masses as 9-inning 4hr ball games.

I love them. But most people don't. and the IOC is going the way of the X Games.

do the math. Greco is getting bounced. 

they can go that way if they want...

greco will still be greco and still be the best style of all...

and greco does not need the validation of others who don't get it...

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37 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Fake news. There's a giant problem with Greco as a consumer product.

Same with MLB. 2-1 forced par terre scores (what we literally got in  Rio) is as consumable to the masses as 9-inning 4hr ball games.

I love them. But most people don't. and the IOC is going the way of the X Games.

do the math. Greco is getting bounced. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

MLB is the second leading sports league in the world in terms of revenue. These revenues have tripled in the past 20 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193466/total-league-revenue-of-the-mlb-since-2005/

People talk about MLB as if it's a dying sport, but the truth is that it's just not growing at the same rate as the NBA and NFL, and that's largely due to the product being better as an in-person experience than for broadcast, meaning that fans tend to be regional based on their ability to get to games. NFL/NBA fans are national because even if you live hundreds of miles from the closest team, you still can become a "fan" of Lebron or the patriots from watching on television. Could some changes make baseball more exciting?  Absolutely.  But that doesn't mean MLB has a serious problem on its hands or deserves to be compared to Greco.  

 

In terms of the X games...I think the X games hasn't caught as much as people had hoped. Turns out you can't just put  "X" in front of a bad sport and have it be popular. Still, your point is very true that skateboarding would get better ratings than Greco....But greco is really a bad product at this point.  It was actually fairly exciting during the days where they had minimal amount of time from neutral and then had 30/30 forced par terre with the reverse lift.   Are these still the rules?  I actually haven't really paid too much attention since. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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3 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

Mad, is this a thing? I suggested this on FRL many moons ago (i think after the Rio debacle). But I never knew there was a name or movement for it. I'd love to see it.

It’s mostly wrestling room sparing drill to get Folkstyle/Freestyle wrestlers to get more comfortable with close quarters hand-fighting and upper body techniques.  But, it’s really not much of a rules adjustment to make it a form of Greco.  Basically, just allow for any leg fowls that don’t involve arms/hands.   Although it create a new challenge for Greco practitioners as they will have to adjust some of their current neutral positioning and tactics to deal with the additional offensive threat.  In my view if it creates more action and scoring without majorly compromising the main idea focus of Greco (no “holds” below the waist) then I think it’s worth exploring before any talks of removing Greco completely come up.  

Edited by MadMardigain

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5 hours ago, MadMardigain said:

It’s mostly wrestling room sparing drill to get Folkstyle/Freestyle wrestlers to get more comfortable with close quarters hand-fighting and upper body techniques.  But, it’s really not much of a rules adjustment to make it a form of Greco.  Basically, just allow for any leg fowls that don’t involve arms/hands.   Although it create a new challenge for Greco practitioners as they will have to adjust some of their current neutral positioning and tactics to deal with the additional offensive threat.  In my view if it creates more action and scoring without majorly compromising the main idea focus of Greco (no “holds” below the waist) then I think it’s worth exploring before any talks of removing Greco completely come up.  

I like the idea, but it almost the exact same as Judo, minus the gi and submissions.  The gi makes throwing so much more common. Watching high level judo, most matches have well executed techniques from the feet for scores, maybe 30% ending with spectacular throws. How often do you see this in high level Greco? Watching Greco highlight clips in great, watching lots of full Greco matches, not so much. There have been a ton of judo rule changes to promote this and as a former competitor, I do not like tha they have gamed the rules so much to take away effective but less spectacular techniques, but it is a better product for the spectators. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I like the idea, but it almost the exact same as Judo, minus the gi and submissions.  The gi makes throwing so much more common. Watching high level judo, most matches have well executed techniques from the feet for scores, maybe 30% ending with spectacular throws. How often do you see this in high level Greco? Watching Greco highlight clips in great, watching lots of full Greco matches, not so much. There have been a ton of judo rule changes to promote this and as a former competitor, I do not like tha they have gamed the rules so much to take away effective but less spectacular techniques, but it is a better product for the spectators. 

 

I had also pointed out a very similar thought to this one much earlier in this thread.

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15 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

MLB is the second leading sports league in the world in terms of revenue. These revenues have tripled in the past 20 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193466/total-league-revenue-of-the-mlb-since-2005/

People talk about MLB as if it's a dying sport, but the truth is that it's just not growing at the same rate as the NBA and NFL, and that's largely due to the product being better as an in-person experience than for broadcast, meaning that fans tend to be regional based on their ability to get to games. NFL/NBA fans are national because even if you live hundreds of miles from the closest team, you still can become a "fan" of Lebron or the patriots from watching on television. Could some changes make baseball more exciting?  Absolutely.  But that doesn't mean MLB has a serious problem on its hands or deserves to be compared to Greco.  

 

In terms of the X games...I think the X games hasn't caught as much as people had hoped. Turns out you can't just put  "X" in front of a bad sport and have it be popular. Still, your point is very true that skateboarding would get better ratings than Greco....But greco is really a bad product at this point.  It was actually fairly exciting during the days where they had minimal amount of time from neutral and then had 30/30 forced par terre with the reverse lift.   Are these still the rules?  I actually haven't really paid too much attention since. 

touche, regarding the growth. wasn't aware of those figures.

however, even MLB is aware of changes in appetite so much so that they are changing rules (NL DH, 3batter minimum for RPs, etc)

 

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I think the IOC would like to replace all wrestling with MMA, they just don't want to admit it yet.

UWW has Pankration a total fighting style with much weight for wrestling takedowns and throws.

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

touche, regarding the growth. wasn't aware of those figures.

however, even MLB is aware of changes in appetite so much so that they are changing rules (NL DH, 3batter minimum for RPs, etc)

 

It’s also a tyranny-of-large-numbers thing. A 2% change in worldwide soccer is still a much bigger figure than a 20% change in professional log rolling in the Pacific Northwest.Those incremental moves are mostly fine when you’ve already got volume.

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On 6/21/2020 at 5:12 PM, GoNotQuietly said:

As a lifetime Greco guy, I must admit Greco as a consumer product is not where it should be right now.  We fixed freestyle after the ball-grab era, and I think it is possible to fix Greco.  One thing I would like to see is a MUCH smaller mat.  This is an idea Ivan Ivanov had to create the pushing necessary to create big throws, and the increase in action when we do it in the room is jaw-dropping.

the mat ivanov was using during last weeks camp...

i'm not mad it...

 

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Is Greco the only sport in the Olympics that women can not compete in? I am struggling to think of another. That is probably a bigger barrier than making it more exciting. The two styles thing seems like it will be unable to last much longer. 

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15 minutes ago, LJB said:

there is a roll of tape in every room...

True, and I always had the little circles.  I would have to think the mats help develop the muscle memory much quicker, developing the sense of where you are at without looking down for the line.

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

True, and I always had the little circles.  I would have to think the mats help develop the muscle memory much quicker, developing the sense of where you are at without looking down for the line.

it is definitely a trip "hazard"

basically, reinforce the point...

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Similar to soccer, usually people who like it played it and understand the intricacies of the strategies, tactics, techniques and plays.  Many people in America don't appreciate this unless they grew up with it or had kids who played.  I have wrestled and coached all styles and appreciate the training, techniques, strategies, etc. to be successful.  Similar to Soccer, oftentimes GR gets a bad wrap because people don't really know what the participants are trying to do.  Honestly, I have watched many GR matches and wondered the same thing.  For instance, I will watch a guy pummel like heck to get an under hook but immediately pulls it out when the other wrestler locks in an over hook.  This is stalling.  If I work to get an under hook, I should have a purpose for that and not be afraid when the other guy engages.  I see this a lot of this in the American style today.  Guys who have not trained enough or know enough in the body lock position and therefore rely totally on a pummel match (cautions/push outs) to win a match.  This is boring but it shouldn't be allowed by astute officials.  However, most officials don't recognize this as passivity and don't call it.  I could probably write a book on this topic but just wanted to provide perspective.

 

 

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1 minute ago, John Morgan said:

Similar to soccer, usually people who like it played it and understand the intricacies of the strategies, tactics, techniques and plays.  Many people in America don't appreciate this unless they grew up with it or had kids who played.  I have wrestled and coached all styles and appreciate the training, techniques, strategies, etc. to be successful.  Similar to Soccer, oftentimes GR gets a bad wrap because people don't really know what the participants are trying to do.  Honestly, I have watched many GR matches and wondered the same thing.  For instance, I will watch a guy pummel like heck to get an under hook but immediately pulls it out when the other wrestler locks in an over hook.  This is stalling.  If I work to get an under hook, I should have a purpose for that and not be afraid when the other guy engages.  I see this a lot of this in the American style today.  Guys who have not trained enough or know enough in the body lock position and therefore rely totally on a pummel match (cautions/push outs) to win a match.  This is boring but it shouldn't be allowed by astute officials.  However, most officials don't recognize this as passivity and don't call it.  I could probably write a book on this topic but just wanted to provide perspective.

watching domestic greco matches and having to accept that the vast majority of refs do not understand greco and refuse to call it correctly, i completely agree with the above...

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On 6/21/2020 at 1:42 PM, LJB said:

MMA is mostly non athletes or real atletes that are no longer able to compete in their real sports... 

so, watered down to begin with... 

and then how much the IOC would have to water it down to make it a one day tourney format would make it totally unwatchable...

Wait what

MMA is full of high level athletes. Did you stop watching in 2004?

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