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spladle08

Pletcher (DarkHorse?)

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I never liked the guy (all his years at 133), but always thought he would be a handful in FS... he slowly started to prove me right.
Between his wrestle-off with Eiremen and this last Folkstyle season...  how are you all feeling towards his transition to seniors full time?
I honestly think he can beat anyone at the weight.... I would favor JO pretty substantially over him (but I can't tell if its just my love for JO)
I think he is better than anyone below that top tier (JO, Yainni, Zane).. I would pick Yainni or Retherford over him but again "I wouldn't be surprised in it going the other way"
I think he is better than the next tier down, I dont see Eiremen, Henderson, etc etc getting him consistently.
He, McKenna, and Lee, seem to be in that group that can give the top guys some fits. (outside of prime JO ;) )
I'm pretty confident he gets by Ashnault in this upcoming match without a ton of push-back.  (I keep telling myself size will be an issue but naw it wont, if he gets teched laugh at me)

In the longest way possible, I was just thinking "I wonder if Zain/Yainni isnt 100% the clear cut future... like we've made it out to be" .... we shall see
 

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I think he beats Lugo, but not Ashnault.  Huge respect for Luke...the only guy wrestling in the BTS Chicago and Flo.
We will see, but I've got him over Ashnault for a variety of reasons, if Im wrong ill really be disappointed in being so far off. Wish it was happening sooner.
@LJB I I'm really hoping Downey, in his new training environment, morphs into a Top 10 guy....his schtick has grown on me, and I want Taylor pushed as much as possible.
Wonder if Zahid wil be 86 for years to come..... driving but thinking "who bails for MMA who rassles"

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20 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

We will see, but I've got him over Ashnault for a variety of reasons, if Im wrong ill really be disappointed in being so far off. Wish it was happening sooner.
@LJB I I'm really hoping Downey, in his new training environment, morphs into a Top 10 guy....his schtick has grown on me, and I want Taylor pushed as much as possible.
Wonder if Zahid wil be 86 for years to come..... driving but thinking "who bails for MMA who rassles"

downey was our world team rep last year... you saying you hope he makes top 10 is just another example of the rampant disrespect downey gets on this bbs based purely on his personality and nothing to do with his wrestling...

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downey was our world team rep last year... you saying you hope he makes top 10 is just another example of the rampant disrespect downey gets on this bbs based purely on his personality and nothing to do with his wrestling...
Im driving but when "proofing" my initial post I wondered if I should clarify "Top 10 in the world" or if it would be implied.... i figured implied, but I now know I was wrong.

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8 minutes ago, spladle08 said:
12 minutes ago, LJB said:
downey was our world team rep last year... you saying you hope he makes top 10 is just another example of the rampant disrespect downey gets on this bbs based purely on his personality and nothing to do with his wrestling...

Im driving but when "proofing" my initial post I wondered if I should clarify "Top 10 in the world" or if it would be implied.... i figured implied, but I now know I was wrong.

fair enough...

with all the downey hate i just assumed...

to be fair, he is "ranked" #7 by UWW, but, we all know that is a point accumulation and not a real "ranking" per se...

 

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fair enough...
with all the downey hate i just assumed...
to be fair, he is "ranked" #7 by UWW, but, we all know that is a point accumulation and not a real "ranking" per se...
 
Yeah dude was talented enough to win the spot under less than ideal conditions, interested if he will thrive with the changes.

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3 hours ago, LJB said:

personally, my one real wish for the match is DT gets up by 12ish and then downey drops him on his head and pins him...

that would make me chuckle endlessly...

the amount of whining and crawdaddying on this bbs would be absolutely marvelous... 

It would kind of remind me of the NCAA Finals where Bubba cradled him if that were to ever happen.

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I am curious to see the size difference between Ashnault and Pletcher.  AA was much bigger then him when they both went 141 and grew into a pretty large 149'er.  What makes you think Pletcher will beat AA given he has lost to him every time in folk? Just curious on opinions on how the match might play out.

AA could be a dark horse too. I think he was planning on sitting the trials out to recover from injury but this delay may let him compete for a spot after all.  He was wicked with that cross wrist tilt and always thought that could translate well into a nice par terre top game.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Juanma25 said:

I am curious to see the size difference between Ashnault and Pletcher.  AA was much bigger then him when they both went 141 and grew into a pretty large 149'er.  What makes you think Pletcher will beat AA given he has lost to him every time in folk? Just curious on opinions on how the match might play out.

AA could be a dark horse too. I think he was planning on sitting the trials out to recover from injury but this delay may let him compete for a spot after all.  He was wicked with that cross wrist tilt and always thought that could translate well into a nice par terre top game.

 

 

He used that well at the pan ams but that stuff doesn’t work domestically with people who have a folk back ground. 

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I am curious to see the size difference between Ashnault and Pletcher.  AA was much bigger then him when they both went 141 and grew into a pretty large 149'er.  What makes you think Pletcher will beat AA given he has lost to him every time in folk? Just curious on opinions on how the match might play out.
AA could be a dark horse too. I think he was planning on sitting the trials out to recover from injury but this delay may let him compete for a spot after all.  He was wicked with that cross wrist tilt and always thought that could translate well into a nice par terre top game.
 
 
100% understand how you feel! Back in 16 or 17 whenever that was AA did get the best of that matchup and is a talent... his pace and top game will definitely make for some quick techs in freestyle.

Size is an interesting question mark for me as well and may come into play here, but ultimately they will wrestle the same weight and I had my doubts about Pletcher in his move back up to 41 but he seemed strong and Im sure he's added size since the NCAA season....

I've always liked his (Pletchers) neutral game for Freestyle, his defense is super solid, not a lot dancing, moves forward and is hard to get out of position.
Conversely AA is a little more dancy, let me get in on a leg and my superior scramble skills will win out most of the time. In freestyle Im always reluctant to give these guys a very high ceiling.
Domestically we have Yainni and DT that really thrive with that style but differently than AA....

I mean maybe he has a sick cross wrist series that he will be able to use to run up the score, but given Pletcher's more "open" offense we saw this year, the scarcity of turns in freestyle, AAs limited freestyle experience, and the push-out point..... gimme Pletcher by 3 or 4 points...

If he gets crushed though, we can definitely revisit this .sorry if this was too cluttered with nonsense....busy at work and tried to speed through it

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3 hours ago, spladle08 said:

100% understand how you feel! Back in 16 or 17 whenever that was AA did get the best of that matchup and is a talent... his pace and top game will definitely make for some quick techs in freestyle.

Size is an interesting question mark for me as well and may come into play here, but ultimately they will wrestle the same weight and I had my doubts about Pletcher in his move back up to 41 but he seemed strong and Im sure he's added size since the NCAA season....

I've always liked his (Pletchers) neutral game for Freestyle, his defense is super solid, not a lot dancing, moves forward and is hard to get out of position.
Conversely AA is a little more dancy, let me get in on a leg and my superior scramble skills will win out most of the time. In freestyle Im always reluctant to give these guys a very high ceiling.
Domestically we have Yainni and DT that really thrive with that style but differently than AA....

I mean maybe he has a sick cross wrist series that he will be able to use to run up the score, but given Pletcher's more "open" offense we saw this year, the scarcity of turns in freestyle, AAs limited freestyle experience, and the push-out point..... gimme Pletcher by 3 or 4 points...

If he gets crushed though, we can definitely revisit this .sorry if this was too cluttered with nonsense....busy at work and tried to speed through it

Appreciate the breakdown and its just nice to be able to start talking about some wrestling again coming up lol. Agreed that Pletcher does seem like he has a good neutral style for freestyle. He's always in great position, has some nasty re-shots and counter wrestling, and his frame and hips seem suited to limit back exposures in scrambles.

I don't watch a ton of freestyle but it does seem like wrestlers that favor solid positional wrestling as opposed to wrestlers who are a little more wild and quick to drop to an ankle do better post college. 

I think AA is just a bad matchup for Pletcher because of his length.  I'll have to re-watch their previous matches but I think AA caught him a couple of times with his ankle pick. AA has never been much of a scrambler though and rarely goes for funk rolls and those kind of things. The thing that makes me think hes got a chance to be a decent on the Senior level is watching how he developed in his transitions from take downs right to back points. I'm also from NJ so my opinion is very bias :)

 

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34 minutes ago, Juanma25 said:

Appreciate the breakdown and its just nice to be able to start talking about some wrestling again coming up lol. Agreed that Pletcher does seem like he has a good neutral style for freestyle. He's always in great position, has some nasty re-shots and counter wrestling, and his frame and hips seem suited to limit back exposures in scrambles.

I don't watch a ton of freestyle but it does seem like wrestlers that favor solid positional wrestling as opposed to wrestlers who are a little more wild and quick to drop to an ankle do better post college. 

I think AA is just a bad matchup for Pletcher because of his length.  I'll have to re-watch their previous matches but I think AA caught him a couple of times with his ankle pick. AA has never been much of a scrambler though and rarely goes for funk rolls and those kind of things. The thing that makes me think hes got a chance to be a decent on the Senior level is watching how he developed in his transitions from take downs right to back points. I'm also from NJ so my opinion is very bias :)

 

Hmmm I will have to re-watch some of his matches. Maybe I am over-remembering his scrambliness, I just didnt remember him as a "Clean" finisher
He was always a hammer on top, but that cross-wrist stuff is tough to get to in FS matches against decent guys (Belly out and wait)
People always says "FS is garbage because 30 sec leg lace techs ALWAYS happen" but... the GOOD guys arent getting rolled up often, if at all...
It usualy comes down to takedowns and AA is a tough task on his feet.
I do remember them being close when they did wrestle back then... hell I will jump on wrestle-stats let me look...
1st meeting 10-1
2nd 5-1
3rd 8-7
So it got closer, but as you said it was 2017 and AA did win them all. Lugo isnt a small 49 right? Maybe this first BTS will give us a little insight as to where Pletcher is at.
2017 NCAA's although theyre definitely both different athletes today

 

Edited by spladle08

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On 6/21/2020 at 5:20 PM, spladle08 said:

I never liked the guy (all his years at 133), but always thought he would be a handful in FS... he slowly started to prove me right.
Between his wrestle-off with Eiremen and this last Folkstyle season...  how are you all feeling towards his transition to seniors full time?
I honestly think he can beat anyone at the weight.... I would favor JO pretty substantially over him (but I can't tell if its just my love for JO)
I think he is better than anyone below that top tier (JO, Yainni, Zane).. I would pick Yainni or Retherford over him but again "I wouldn't be surprised in it going the other way"
I think he is better than the next tier down, I dont see Eiremen, Henderson, etc etc getting him consistently.
He, McKenna, and Lee, seem to be in that group that can give the top guys some fits. (outside of prime JO ;) )
I'm pretty confident he gets by Ashnault in this upcoming match without a ton of push-back.  (I keep telling myself size will be an issue but naw it wont, if he gets teched laugh at me)

In the longest way possible, I was just thinking "I wonder if Zain/Yainni isnt 100% the clear cut future... like we've made it out to be" .... we shall see
 

Props for making your call beforehand. He certainly will be strong enough and with that low center-of-gravity he should be tough to score on.

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8 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Props for making your call beforehand. He certainly will be strong enough and with that low center-of-gravity he should be tough to score on.

He's going to be a muscled up mini horse right? I don't see the strength being an issue. Length maybe but it's always been.
I think he's going to be a real problem for most.
I think the way JO is able to get-to and finish that double will be a problem for him, but the rest of the guys Im not seeing it.
If Lugo beats him Sunday, I will retire from pre-match analysis for at least 30minutes.
 

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23 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

He's going to be a muscled up mini horse right? I don't see the strength being an issue. Length maybe but it's always been.
I think he's going to be a real problem for most.
I think the way JO is able to get-to and finish that double will be a problem for him, but the rest of the guys Im not seeing it.
If Lugo beats him Sunday, I will retire from pre-match analysis for at least 30minutes.
 

No need to do that. If everybody on this message board had to retire after a bad pick there'd be nobody here but crickets. 

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On 6/21/2020 at 7:20 PM, spladle08 said:

In the longest way possible, I was just thinking "I wonder if Zain/Yainni isnt 100% the clear cut future... like we've made it out to be" .... we shall see

I think JO is done after this quad no matter what - he's on the wrong side of 30.

Regarding the future- McKenna has earned a spot in the domestic top tier in my opinion and I won't be surprised to see Lee in that group at OTT as well. 65 domestically is such a crapshoot depending on the day.

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1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

I think JO is done after this quad no matter what - he's on the wrong side of 30.

Regarding the future- McKenna has earned a spot in the domestic top tier in my opinion and I won't be surprised to see Lee in that group at OTT as well. 65 domestically is such a crapshoot depending on the day.

Its crazy we have so many seemingly top tier guys who CAN beat the top world level guys, but beating 2 or 3 in a row seems literally IMPOSSIBLE
57kg kind of the same boat, but the weight overall isn't as deep so beating 1 or 2 likely  lands you in the finals.
I hope we start seeing consistent World Medal threats emerge from 57kg-70kg in the coming years. (and i hope we don't lose any possible killers to MMA)
Not sure how much longer KD, DT, JC, Snyderman, will go, but itll be a shame to see them leave. I think a couple of saddening retirements will happen after this quad but life goes on

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Pletcher definitely made some huge gains between his Junior and Senior years and that could be seen just in his bonus rate increase.  Forgot about the NCAA match with AA, he did close the gap that year.  AA also made some tremendous gains taking that next year off to finally heal from the surgery and previous injuries and then bulking up. He was an absolute beast his Senior year.  As you mentioned he struggled with finishing his shots but that was where I think he made the biggest gains between his Junior and Senior  year wrestling through positions, finishing the shot, and transitioning straight to back points.  You could see that in his match with Kolodzik where he put up a 10 spot on him. I could see him developing a sweet leg lace from that ankle pick he has always been so slick with. Anyway I'm obviously a Rutgers homer.

Going to be a great match either way and totally agree the match with Lugo will be a great barometer as to Pletcher handling a full size 149'er. Thanks for posting the NCAA match Spladle.

 

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Pletcher definitely made some huge gains between his Junior and Senior years and that could be seen just in his bonus rate increase.  Forgot about the NCAA match with AA, he did close the gap that year.  AA also made some tremendous gains taking that next year off to finally heal from the surgery and previous injuries and then bulking up. He was an absolute beast his Senior year.  As you mentioned he struggled with finishing his shots but that was where I think he made the biggest gains between his Junior and Senior  year wrestling through positions, finishing the shot, and transitioning straight to back points.  You could see that in his match with Kolodzik where he put up a 10 spot on him. I could see him developing a sweet leg lace from that ankle pick he has always been so slick with. Anyway I'm obviously a Rutgers homer.
Going to be a great match either way and totally agree the match with Lugo will be a great barometer as to Pletcher handling a full size 149'er. Thanks for posting the NCAA match Spladle.
 
Thanks for being reasonable :)
It'll be a great match! Look forward to discussing after! #Cheers

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