Cael > Dake - just the facts

[OCGrappler 44]

I am old enough to run for Senate, and I think Dake had the more impressive career. Which isn't the same as being the better wrestler.

[PA-Fan 0]

I am old enough to run for Senate, and I think Dake had the more impressive career. Which isn't the same as being the better wrestler.

 

On paper...right? :D

[jchapman 1,330]

Owned? Calm down douche. He could have beat the hodge winner as a freshman and as a sophomore. Dumb argument because the hodge winner may not have been in his weight but my point is Dake didn't beat chopped liver. The last two guys he beat were NCAA champs the next year and would have probably been two timers had it not been for dake.

exactly. Cael should have lured Stephan Neal out of the World circuit and had the NCAA grant him a fifth year so he could beat the defending Hodge winner.

[NJDan 1,075]

It is the reason that you must be at least 35 years old to run for Senate. You have to experience in life, and not look at your teenage life as the basis of all that is relevant.

 

Great, great point, except you only have to be 25 to run for senate. You are thinking about president. You can be a wrestling fan at any age though. And looking at this board, and at the ages of fans at wrestling events, I doubt there are too many who are not old enough for either office.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

I am old enough to run for Senate, and I think Dake had the more impressive career. Which isn't the same as being the better wrestler.

 

Doesn't matter how old you are. Most of us are old enough to compare the 2 careers just fine. We're not comparing Babe Ruth to Ken Griffey!

[OCGrappler 44]

Owned? Calm down douche. He could have beat the hodge winner as a freshman and as a sophomore. Dumb argument because the hodge winner may not have been in his weight but my point is Dake didn't beat chopped liver. The last two guys he beat were NCAA champs the next year and would have probably been two timers had it not been for dake.

exactly. Cael should have lured Stephan Neal out of the World circuit and had the NCAA grant him a fifth year so he could beat the defending Hodge winner.

I know you are joking, but it is a good comparison because that would have been going up a weight ala Dake. The only problem is that Neal would have pinned or teched Cael.

[NJDan 1,075]

This is a sill debate, but fun.

 

The fact that Cael later beat the guy (Jenn) who he lost to as a redshirt is actually a strong point for Dake. It shows that most people are substantially better after their RS year than during it. Indeed that is precisely why most top guys redshirt (nearly all, it seems). This is likely why, for example, Taylor redshirted even though his high school record was better than Dake's (or anyone's in some time, save perhaps Marstellar).

 

Had Cael not redshirted, he would have faced much tougher competition as a true frosh than he did, in fact, as a redshirt. So he might have had some losses had he done what Dake did and wrestled as a true freshman. Dake also had losses as a sophomore, equivalent to Cael's RS freshman year, so that point favors Cael.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

This is a sill debate, but fun.

 

The fact that Cael later beat the guy (Jenn) who he lost to as a redshirt is actually a strong point for Dake. It shows that most people are substantially better after their RS year than during it. Indeed that is precisely why most top guys redshirt (nearly all, it seems). This is likely why, for example, Taylor redshirted even though his high school record was better than Dake's (or anyone's in some time, save perhaps Marstellar).

 

Had Cael not redshirted, he would have faced much tougher competition as a true frosh than he did, in fact, as a redshirt. So he might have had some losses had he done what Dake did and wrestled as a true freshman. Dake also had losses as a sophomore, equivalent to Cael's RS freshman year, so that point favors Cael.

 

 

It still boils down to Cael dominating like Taylor with the credentials of Dake.

90% + bonus while winning 4 NC. Not losing along the way just tops it.

 

Cael also did something that EVERY wrestler in the WORLD tries to do. Not get beat. Only 1 has accomplished it. 1 in 1000 even attempt the feat that Dake did.

[PA-Fan 0]

Owned? Calm down douche. He could have beat the hodge winner as a freshman and as a sophomore. Dumb argument because the hodge winner may not have been in his weight but my point is Dake didn't beat chopped liver. The last two guys he beat were NCAA champs the next year and would have probably been two timers had it not been for dake.

exactly. Cael should have lured Stephan Neal out of the World circuit and had the NCAA grant him a fifth year so he could beat the defending Hodge winner.

I know you are joking, but it is a good comparison because that would have been going up a weight ala Dake. The only problem is that Neal would have pinned or teched Cael.

 

Now I think you are just trolling. The guy who went 159-0 in his NCAA career would have gotten pinned or teched? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock:

[OCGrappler 44]

By a world champ that outweighed him by 50 pounds of muscle? Yes.

[Pinnum 840]

In wrestling, the redshirt is mereling an accounting trick.

 

Does any college wrestler have an official college win over Cael or Over Dake? The answer is yes to both. Does Cael have an official loss? No. Redshirts can impact the seasons and careers of other college wrestlers (their matches are factored into NCAA qualification), however, the redshirt has no risk and can actually manipulate the seasons and qualifications of others without penalty (they are not considered attached collegiates). This is my biggest issue with the rules.

 

Looking at their first season, Dake had two losses wrestling as a starter against other team's starters in duals and wrestling a top flight schedule that included events like Vegas and the National Duals. Cael wrestled mainly a regional open schedule. The typical starter wrestles in no more than two opens a year leaving the bulk of the entrants being backups and redshirts (or non-D1 wrestlers).

 

Was Cael's story of being undefeated great for the promotion of the sport? Yes. Did it make his brand that has allowed him to easily recruit? Yes. Was he a better collegiate than Dake? Maybe, or maybe not. It is tough when you have Taylor who seems to be as dominant as Cael was but yet Dake just finds ways to beat everyone.

 

Does offense win championships or does defense win championships? That seems to be the question. (Mobile)

[PA-Fan 0]

By a world champ that outweighed him by 50 pounds of muscle? Yes.

 

I don't care if you outweigh Cael by 150 lbs. You are not teching him - and I doubt a HWT could pin him either.

 

You think Tony Nelson would take it to Cael too?

[OCGrappler 44]

Tony Nelson isn't Neal. Not by a long shot. Nelson against Cael would be an interesting match. Neal, with his size and offense, would be a massacre against any 184 or 197 pounder.

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

We're any of those guys the defending Hodge winner let alone at a weightclass above?

Kind of hard for Cael to beat the defending Hodge winner when he himself kept winning the Hodge.

:lol: Never thought of that. I guess it'd be fair to say that by his senior year, Cael was at least as good as the two previous years' Hodge winners (actually better since he improved each year).

[PA-Fan 0]

Tony Nelson isn't Neal. Not by a long shot. Nelson against Cael would be an interesting match. Neal, with his size and offense, would be a massacre against any 184 or 197 pounder.

 

Nelson isn't Neal....but Cael -the guy who went 159-0 with 4 titles and 3 hodge trophies with like 85% bonus wins- is "any 184 or 197 pounder"?

 

Interesting.

 

:lol:

[NJDan 1,075]

HERE are the top guys at 177 and 190 the year Cael was a redshirt. (I guess they changed the weights the next year).

 

177: Mitch Clark, Vertus Jones, John Withrow, Aaron Simpson

190 Tim Hartung, Jason Robison Lee Fullhart,Ryan Tobin

(Chael Sonnen was 8th)

 

The question is could Cael have beaten these guys right out of high school (not just other redshirts and unattached guys). I believe that 3rd place Fullhart beat him in freestyle even a few years later. Maybe Cael would have been at 177. Hard to know if he would have been undefeated without the RS.

[PA-Fan 0]

HERE are the top guys at 177 and 190 the year Cael was a redshirt. (I guess they changed the weights the next year).

 

177: Mitch Clark, Vertus Jones, John Withrow, Aaron Simpson

190 Tim Hartung, Jason Robison Lee Fullhart,Ryan Tobin

(Chael Sonnen was 8th)

 

The question is could Cael have beaten these guys right out of high school (not just other redshirts and unattached guys). I believe that 3rd place Fullhart beat him in freestyle even a few years later. Maybe Cael would have been at 177. Hard to know if he would have been undefeated without the RS.

 

No, that is not the question. The question is why do people keep talking about his RS year as if it somehow negates the fact that his still went 4 years of NCAA competition without a loss and 4 titles.

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

Stephen Neal was an athletic freak. Watching him on tape does no justice to how much of a physical specimen he was. How many guys do you know who win world championships in one sport and then go on to win Superbowls and get elected to Pro bowls in a sport they never played seriously, let alone at all in college?

 

To put it in perspective, think of Jordan Burroughs as David Banner and Stephen Neal as the Incredible Hulk version of Banner. Neal won at the highest levels of wrestling with one move that everyone knew was coming from a mile away but could not stop it: the freight train double. He was a rock solid 40-50 lbs of fast twitch muscle fiber bigger than Cael and arguably more athletic. While it's a little unfair to suggest that Dake moving up to face Taylor is the same as Cael moving up to face Neal, it is pure lunacy to think Cael would stand a snowball's chance in hell of keeping it close with Neal. It would be a massacre and equivalent to Maple going against Ruth.

[jchapman 1,330]

Owned? Calm down douche. He could have beat the hodge winner as a freshman and as a sophomore. Dumb argument because the hodge winner may not have been in his weight but my point is Dake didn't beat chopped liver. The last two guys he beat were NCAA champs the next year and would have probably been two timers had it not been for dake.

exactly. Cael should have lured Stephan Neal out of the World circuit and had the NCAA grant him a fifth year so he could beat the defending Hodge winner.

I know you are joking, but it is a good comparison because that would have been going up a weight ala Dake. The only problem is that Neal would have pinned or teched Cael.

So you are now saying what Dake did was comparable to beating the current World Champion, up two weights? Because that is what Neal was in 1999. This just keeps getting more an more surreal! Lol

[PA-Fan 0]

it is pure lunacy to think Cael would stand a snowball's chance in hell of keeping it close with Neal.

 

Really. It is pure lunacy to think that the (many agree) best NCAA wrestler in history - who NEVER lost in 4 years of NCAA competition - could "keep it close" with Neal? Not win mind you - just keep it close (not get teched or pinned - which started this argument)....that is lunacy?

 

Interesting.

 

It would be a massacre and equivalent to Maple going against Ruth.

 

And it would not be equivalent to that - not at all. Not only is Maple not Cael. Neal, or Ruth - but going from 141 to 184 is a much more significant jump than going from 197 to 250-260.

 

While the jump in pounds is bigger from Cael to Neal - the difference in strength from 141-184 and 197-HWT is not comparable.

 

*It is like Man vs. Boy at 141 vs. 184....and Man vs. Oversized Man at 197 vs. HWT

[OCGrappler 44]

I'm not saying that. I'm not the one who brought Neal's name into it. I'm just saying it's a bad idea to do so.

 

The whole idea of beating Hodge winners (or not) is silly anyway. There was a D3 wrestler and an NAIA wrestler to win the Hodge. Look at the credentials of the wrestlers, not some silly award. Metcalf won the Hodge, Caldwell didn't. How did that work out. Askren won the hodge twice, Chris Pendleton never did. Does someone really want to tell me that Emmet Wilson is a better wrestler than Pendleton or Hahn or Rowlands or Greg Jones or some of the other guys that he "beat" to win the Hodge in 2004? Actually Jesse Jantzen destroyed every 149 pounder in the country that year, but he didn't get the Hodge because he bumped up to 157 and lost there to Tirapelle. Saying that someone is or isn't a better wrestler because of winning or not winning the Hodge or beating someone that won the Hodge is lame.

[wrestlingnerd 3,003]

Neal would eat Cael for breakfast. Not the Wheaties with Cael on the box, Cael himself.

[OCGrappler 44]

it is pure lunacy to think Cael would stand a snowball's chance in hell of keeping it close with Neal.

 

Really. It is pure lunacy to think that the (many agree) best NCAA wrestler in history - who NEVER lost in 4 years of NCAA competition - could "keep it close" with Neal? Not win mind you - just keep it close (not get teched or pinned - which started this argument)....that is lunacy?

 

Interesting.

 

It would be a massacre and equivalent to Maple going against Ruth.

 

And it would not be equivalent to that - not at all. Not only is Maple not Cael. Neal, or Ruth - but going from 141 to 184 is a much more significant jump than going from 197 to 250-260.

 

While the jump in pounds is bigger from Cael to Neal - the difference in strength from 141-184 and 197-HWT is not comparable.

 

Yes, it is lunacy. It is not lunacy to say that Cael, say he rolled in at 210 or something, could "keep it close" with Rowlands or McCoy...lighter heavyweights. He might even be able to "keep it close" with some of the big guys who wrestle more defensively. But if he wrestled Stephen Neal 100 times, he would lose by major or worse 100 times and there would be a lot of pins and techs in there.

 

This isn't any knock on Cael, it's just reality. A 165 Dake would never beat a 184/197 Cael. (But a 184 Dake?.....)

[PA-Fan 0]

it is pure lunacy to think Cael would stand a snowball's chance in hell of keeping it close with Neal.

 

Really. It is pure lunacy to think that the (many agree) best NCAA wrestler in history - who NEVER lost in 4 years of NCAA competition - could "keep it close" with Neal? Not win mind you - just keep it close (not get teched or pinned - which started this argument)....that is lunacy?

 

Interesting.

 

It would be a massacre and equivalent to Maple going against Ruth.

 

And it would not be equivalent to that - not at all. Not only is Maple not Cael. Neal, or Ruth - but going from 141 to 184 is a much more significant jump than going from 197 to 250-260.

 

While the jump in pounds is bigger from Cael to Neal - the difference in strength from 141-184 and 197-HWT is not comparable.

 

Yes, it is lunacy. It is not lunacy to say that Cael, say he rolled in at 210 or something, could "keep it close" with Rowlands or McCoy...lighter heavyweights. He might even be able to "keep it close" with some of the big guys who wrestle more defensively. But if he wrestled Stephen Neal 100 times, he would lose by major or worse 100 times and there would be a lot of pins and techs in there.

 

This isn't any knock on Cael, it's just reality. A 165 Dake would never beat a 184/197 Cael. (But a 184 Dake?.....)

 

I saw in my HS room our 160 lber regularly wrestle our HWT. The HWT was not a typical fat HWT - he was BIG (as in muscle) and could move in a way that seemed impossible. Both were state champions - and they battled in the room. The 160 lber would score and be in the matches they had - more than just keep it close.

 

Extrapolate this example - make it two World Class level wrestlers - make the smaller one Cael Sanderson at 197 lbs instead of 160 lbs - and the bigger one Stephen Neal... and tell me why it is lunacy to think Cael could keep it close.

 

Get serious. You may not intentionally be knocking Cael (im sure you are not) - but you are severely underestimating how freakishly good he was.

 

Side note: I also like how you threw in there that Cael "might be able to keep it close" with bigger more defensive HWTs - :lol: . Maybe if he wrestled his best match ever he could keep from getting majored by Tony Nelson!!

[scribe 1,835]

I am comfortable with Cael being considered the greatest collegiate wrestler ever. But I have my doubts he could have duplicated what Dake did. I have my doubts Dake could have duplicated what Cael did, if he had chosen the same path.

 

Both accomplishments are exceptional, and worthy of 1-2 on the history charts, for now.

 

Someone's welcome to make a list of pre-70's wrestlers, but it's gotten to the point of apples to oranges given the range and quality of competition differences between eras. Natural strength was the overarching prerequisite of the previous generation. It alone, is merely a subset in modern wrestling.