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Frank_Rizzo

Cael > Dake - just the facts

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I am beginning to wonder how many of you guys actaully followed college wrestling when Cael competed. Not that we shouldn't be able to look at his record and judge from there. However, he dominated. Guys, help me out here. I don't know how else to describe what Cael did. I am at a loss for words.

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I am comfortable with Cael being considered the greatest collegiate wrestler ever. But I have my doubts he could have duplicated what Dake did. I have my doubts Dake could have duplicated what Cael did, if he had chosen the same path.

 

Both accomplishments are exceptional, and worthy of 1-2 on the history charts, for now.

 

Someone's welcome to make a list of pre-70's wrestlers, but it's gotten to the point of apples to oranges given the range and quality of competition differences between eras. Natural strength was the overarching prerequisite of the previous generation. It alone, is merely a subset in modern wrestling.

 

True Dat, but I would say that Dake's success is largely due to natural strength. People just can't get away from him.

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Look, I couldn't be a bigger fan of Dake, but Cael was still on another level in college. Some of the guys he laid waste to for those of you who say Dake faced better competition:

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

Rob Rohn - national champ

I'm not even going to bother to list other monsters of the sport like Jon Trenge and other multiple-time all-americans who Cael regularly majored, teched, or pinned because it would take too long.

 

Cael also made the 2001 World team while still in college. Dake is one of the best ever, but Cael was even better in college. Just a fact.

 

Funny, you don't sound like the biggest Dake fan. You sound like a PSU homer.

Dake:

- 4 different weights.

- No Dake redshirt either.

Just say'in...

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I don't think anyone can get within a breath of the championship in modern wrestling without extreme natural strength...... in addition to lots and lots of augmentation in the modern weight room.

Yeah, most great wrestlers have freakish strength that is largely genetic and has nothing to do with the weightroom. You hear it time and time again.......the best wrestlers are always described by their opponents and coaches as being freakishly strong. There are exceptions (like Saitiev and Smith) of course, but the guys that are exceptions tend to have other unbelievable assets that make up for the lack of strength. Askren was another exception at the college level, although I bet his grip strength was crazy strong.

 

Cael himself was described by opponents as the strongest guy they ever wrestled, even if he didn't look that big. Varner had freak strength. Burroughs is ridiculous. Tom Ryan was talking about how strong Steiber is. Ed Ruth probably has freakish grip strength. Extreme strength is now almost a prerequisite for wrestling success.

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Cael is ranked ahead of Dake for two main reasons. #1 is the undefeated record. And #2, and perhaps more important, is that he passes the "eye test" in terms of looking at him destroy quality wrestlers like it's easy. You watch Cael wrestle back in the day, and you watch Dake now, and you easily say Cael is number 1. The only problem with this, and the only reason why this conversation is remotely interesting, is that we've seen in wrestling that the "eye test" is not always accurate. Look no further than Dake and Taylor for example. Taylor passes the eye test, and lays waste to opponents in the exact same manner that Cael did. Until the slip up against Bubba his freshman year, people were already starting to wonder if Taylor could replicate what his mentor Cael did. And if Dake had stayed at 157 this year and the two had never wrestled, Taylor would have continued to lay waste to everyone en route to an eventual 3 NCAA titles, with his only loss being to Bubba, while Dake would have won title #4 by a score of 5-3 or so against St. John. So many people would have ranked Taylor ahead of Dake despite the 3 titles versus 4 deal. In fact just last year many fans were putting Taylor ahead of Dake based on his dominance, and passing the "eye test". But since Dake did go up to 165, and beat Taylor 3X in folkstyle (plus the one in freestyle that doesn't count) we now know who deserves to be ranked ahead of who. Again, none of this removes Cael from #1, but it does at least make it sound not so crazy to debate.

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Ive been reading posts on this site for years, and finally decided to join the fun!

 

I really enjoyed following Dake's career, but don't even see him as being "obviously better" than Pat Smith let alone CAel. I'd also add that Mcilravy lost once in the finals, but like Pat Smith didn't "need" a redshirt to accomplish what they did. Mac won 2 titles and had a runner up before taking a redshirt. Smith only took one with Ok St. being inelegible. Mac went in right out of college and started winning us opens and world medals. I just don't see Dake at that level.

 

How many "close matches" did Dake have even in the last 2 years? I'd say alot compared to any of the greats listed in this conversation. No one was slow down Mac to a 3-0 decison in the first round. If this were a one time deal, I'd throw the result out as being"odd". However, he wasn't even in the same realm of DOMINANCE as Cael, as he had alo of close matches.

 

We forget alot o the old-timers like Uteke, who never lost in college and won the olympics while in college. I don't see any of Dakes results that would suggest hes capable of this.

 

I'm laughing as guys say on her Cormier and Eggum aren't as good as Molinaro and St. John. Most that have followed wresting would say thats simply not true.

 

Winning a title for anyone i as a freshman is also a product of timing. For example, if a very good freshman were at 165 this year, it would have been neary impossible. SAme at 184 with Ruth there, or say Stephan Abas his senior year, or in john Smith weight when he was a senior (you get my point). My point is that is you have a monster upper classman in the weight, its almost impossible to win FOR AnY FRESHMAN. If you look at all the 4 timers, none had "monsters" in their weights as freshman.

 

Lastly, I believe in two years, Stieber will close out a more dominant 4-time champ career than Dake. The whole not-redshirting things is the only thing that complicates this. Personally I have PAt Smith ahead of Dake on the list of 4-timers, based on dominence. I also believe Mcilravy would have beat Dake 8 or 9 times out of 10. Dominance IS AN INDICATOR of how good a guy is.

 

Ok-defending Dake, the guy is a gamer and one of the all-time greats for sure. I don't thin anyone in history beats him badly. I hope he commits to freestyle, as 163 could end up being as deep as back in the days of Schultz and Monday!

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I don't think anyone can get within a breath of the championship in modern wrestling without extreme natural strength...... in addition to lots and lots of augmentation in the modern weight room.

Yeah, most great wrestlers have freakish strength that is largely genetic and has nothing to do with the weightroom. You hear it time and time again.......the best wrestlers are always described by their opponents and coaches as being freakishly strong. There are exceptions (like Saitiev and Smith) of course, but the guys that are exceptions tend to have other unbelievable assets that make up for the lack of strength. Askren was another exception at the college level, although I bet his grip strength was crazy strong.

 

Cael himself was described by opponents as the strongest guy they ever wrestled, even if he didn't look that big. Varner had freak strength. Burroughs is ridiculous. Tom Ryan was talking about how strong Steiber is. Ed Ruth probably has freakish grip strength. Extreme strength is now almost a prerequisite for wrestling success.

 

I can't for the life of me remember where it was, but it was said by a high caliber opponent that he was shocked at how strong John Smith is/was.

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In DSI, there are only 3 4 time champs. Each did something unique that no other wrestler had accomplished.

 

Smith, Sanderson and Dake are 1, 2, 3 by virtue of what they did collegiately. 4 finals appaerances, 4 championships.

 

There is no right or wrong way to list them in order. There is nothing to prove any one opinion or theory as to where they should be.

 

A wrestling Enigma that is our message board Paradox

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Look, I couldn't be a bigger fan of Dake, but Cael was still on another level in college. Some of the guys he laid waste to for those of you who say Dake faced better competition:

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

Rob Rohn - national champ

I'm not even going to bother to list other monsters of the sport like Jon Trenge and other multiple-time all-americans who Cael regularly majored, teched, or pinned because it would take too long.

 

Cael also made the 2001 World team while still in college. Dake is one of the best ever, but Cael was even better in college. Just a fact.

 

Funny, you don't sound like the biggest Dake fan. You sound like a PSU homer.

Dake:

- 4 different weights.

- No Dake redshirt either.

Just say'in...

 

He is the FURTHEST from a PSU homer! This just speaks for yourself.

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It is the reason that you must be at least 35 years old to run for Senate. You have to experience in life, and not look at your teenage life as the basis of all that is relevant.

 

Great, great point, except you only have to be 25 to run for senate. You are thinking about president. You can be a wrestling fan at any age though. And looking at this board, and at the ages of fans at wrestling events, I doubt there are too many who are not old enough for either office.

 

Your free civics lesson gents . . . per the Constitution

 

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

 

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

 

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

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Here is Cael against Daniel Cormier. Cormier wasn't very good, certainly not in the Donnie Vinson or Kevin LaValley mode. He only made two Olympic teams, placing 4th in 2004. He is currently ranked among the top Hwts in MMA. Notice how Cael is content to win 2-0 in the match. :D

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/23 ... homa-State

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We're any of those guys the defending Hodge winner let alone at a weightclass above?

 

Cael was the OW 4x and the Hodge 3x. Basically, the people that count these things in real time believed Cael was the top dog all the time.

 

Not to diminish Dake's tremendous accomplishments, but he wasn't even believed to be the best wrestler in any given year until his senior year.

 

Cael was also unblemished. To me that will always be the defining measurement. No big deal, though. Dake is right there. He's incredible. Both of them are at the top.

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One can certainly argue that Dake's feat is equal if not more impressive than Cael's.

 

Cael's ultimate claim to fame is an undefeated record. However, as all know, he was not undefeated in college. He was beaten by the late Paul Jenn 6-4 as a true freshman.

 

Therefore, the following are things Cael never did.

 

- Dake as a true freshman won an NCAA title.

- Dake won 4 titles at 4 different weights in 4 straight years.

- Dake moved up to face and defeat the most dominant college wrestler.

 

It's actually hard to compare the two because of their unique strengths.

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One can certainly argue that Dake's feat is equal if not more impressive than Cael's.

 

Cael's ultimate claim to fame is an undefeated record. However, as all know, he was not undefeated in college. He was beaten by the late Paul Jenn 6-4 as a true freshman.

 

Therefore, the following are things Cael never did.

 

- Dake as a true freshman won an NCAA title.

- Dake won 4 titles at 4 different weights in 4 straight years.

- Dake moved up to face and defeat the most dominant college wrestler.

 

It's actually hard to compare the two because of their unique strengths.

 

It amazes me that someone new always jumps in so late and repeats the thing that has been being discussed for 3 pages already...regardless of how many losses Cael had as a RS - he still went 4 years without a loss in NCAA competition. (Not to mention he destroyed Jenn 3 times after that loss)

 

Here are a few thing Dake never did.

 

-Cael went 4 years of NCAA D1 competition without a lose

-Cael won the OW at NCAAs 4 times, and the Hodge Trophy 3 times.

-Cael didn't move up to face and defeat the most dominant college wrestler - he was the most dominant college wrestler.

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One can certainly argue that Dake's feat is equal if not more impressive than Cael's.

 

Cael was undefeated. That ends it right there.

 

Also, and this is NOT stated to diminish what Dake did, but just to state a fact that rarely gets brought up (one guy did mention it in this thread), but if there is a top end dominating senior in your weight class then you are not going to win the championship your freshman year.

 

Dake beat the Big10 runner up in the semifinals that freshman year, then got a sophomore Montel Marion in the final. Had he been facing Gallick, J Jaggers, Teyon Ware, or Kellen Russell when those guys were seniors or even juniors, he probably doesn't beat them as a true freshman. So his winning that title as a freshman involved him being very good, but also being lucky in not having to face a dominating upperclassman.

 

The whole changing weight thing is overblown. Dake was never undersized.

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Look, I couldn't be a bigger fan of Dake, but Cael was still on another level in college. Some of the guys he laid waste to for those of you who say Dake faced better competition:

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

 

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

 

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

 

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

 

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

 

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

 

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

 

Rob Rohn - national champ

 

I'm not even going to bother to list other monsters of the sport like Jon Trenge and other multiple-time all-americans who Cael regularly majored, teched, or pinned because it would take too long.

 

Cael also made the 2001 World team while still in college. Dake is one of the best ever, but Cael was even better in college. Just a fact.

 

You can't compare the post-college success of guys in college to guys in college because they haven't competed internationally yet. That just isn't a good way to compare them. In time, Dake's opponents will compete internationally and then that comparison may be fair.

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I don't think anyone can get within a breath of the championship in modern wrestling without extreme natural strength...... in addition to lots and lots of augmentation in the modern weight room.

He obviously had a lot of strength, but I wonder if Nick Simmons lifted much. It seems crazy that someone could lift frequently and still have that body type.

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Look, I couldn't be a bigger fan of Dake, but Cael was still on another level in college. Some of the guys he laid waste to for those of you who say Dake faced better competition:

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

 

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

 

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

 

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

 

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

 

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

 

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

 

Rob Rohn - national champ

 

I'm not even going to bother to list other monsters of the sport like Jon Trenge and other multiple-time all-americans who Cael regularly majored, teched, or pinned because it would take too long.

 

Cael also made the 2001 World team while still in college. Dake is one of the best ever, but Cael was even better in college. Just a fact.

 

You can't compare the post-college success of guys in college to guys in college because they haven't competed internationally yet. That just isn't a good way to compare them. In time, Dake's opponents will compete internationally and then that comparison may be fair.

 

4 on that list were National Champs - so it is not as if the guys Cael beat only have post-college International success.

 

Also, lets call a spade a spade. Kevin LeValley is not making any world or Olympic teams. Neither are Marion or Vinson in all probability. DSJ and Molinaro - doubt it. Even Taylor is looking like he is jammed up behind Burroughs. Im not saying Dake beat (or lost to) a bunch of nobodys - obviously not - but I dont quite think we have to wait and see what all these guys do internationally...many of them have no chance to even make the National team.

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