Cael > Dake - just the facts

[CaneinBatonRouge 0]

Your last point is the weakest to me. It only points out that Sanderson never defeated anyone even similar to himself.

 

It points out that Cael was the most dominant EACH and EVERY year. You can't wrestle yourself. No one was even close to him, not sure how that is a knock. Makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

And if Dake had stayed the same weight as a previous year, he would have had the same problem. But, he didn't. As a matter of fact, he took the challenge of going for number 4 in Taylor's weight class. He could have stayed at 157 and won number 4. But then again, that's not what being a competitor is all about.

 

As for Cael vs Dake, I really don't know who I would pick. Can I have them both?

[mspart 270]

OK we can just let this one rest.

 

Cael vs Dake at US Nationals. The match is Folkstyle rules. Best man wins!!

 

mspart

[PA-Fan 0]

Let's say St. John and Taylor win the NCAA's next year.

 

Dake's final opponents: 5 NCAA titles, 11 NCAA finals, 15x All Americans

Cael's final opponents: 0 NCAA titles, 6 NCAA finals, 9x All Americans

 

So opponents only count if you wrestle them in the NCAA Finals??

 

Im pretty sure if you take into account all opponents they wrestled/beat - regardless of if the match was in the finals- these numbers are much, much closer than your post is making it seem.

[BigApple 86]

It is so much fun arguing, my late father would change sides just so he could argue.

 

The first college match i saw was Gray Simons win his 3rd NCAA title in 1962. Now he was a 4-time national champ, who had one loss when he wrestled up a weight. We can add Danny Hodge and Uetake to the discussion for all time greats. Now if the referee had given Dick Hutton the win instead of Verne Gagne, then we could really have some arguments as to who was the best 4-time NCAA champ.

 

Kyle Dake was dominant this year, and beat David Taylor 3 times who was the defending champ and OW. He does this without redshirting. Cael goes undefeated in 4 years and is dominating all 4 years, but he redshirted. Pat Smith wins 3 without redshirting, then redshirts because OSU is on probation.

 

No one can top what Cael did. Someone can match what Kyle did. Now in my lifetime i don't think i'll see a wrestler win 4 NCAA titles at 4 different weights and be undefeated. That would be the guy who wins this argument in the future. Personally, i don't care. I got to watch all 3 each win 4 titles.

 

I like what Dan Hodge says about him and Cael. I was the best of my time and he was the best of his time.

[Alwayswrestling 227]

Cael undefeated and 4 NCAA titles with a RS is incredible and Dake 4 NCAA titles at 4 different weights with out a RS is equally incredible to meet especially the last jump where he beats the defending NCAA champ and Hodge winner three times.

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

10 years from now, after his final college match, will Kyle Dake be a two-time NCAA Team Champion coach like Cael Sanderson was?

 

After 11 it's 3 (in a row).

 

It remains to be seen whether he'll have an Olympic Gold and World Silver.

 

What he will have: Cornell degree > Iowa State degree

[HoundedHawk 83]

No one can top what Cael did.

Yes, they can. First, they can win more matches than Cael did. Second, they can do it in four straight years without a redshirt. Third, they can do it against an absolutely amazing opponent. Fourth, they can go undefeated at four different weights.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

No one can top what Cael did.

Yes, they can. First, they can win more matches than Cael did. Second, they can do it in four straight years without a redshirt. Third, they can do it against an absolutely amazing opponent. Fourth, they can go undefeated at four different weights.

 

Bro, before you are going to sit there saying Montel Marion, Derek St John and Frank Molinaro are world class, check out Caels hit list. WORLD CLASS!

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

 

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

 

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

 

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

 

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

 

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

 

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

 

Rob Rohn - national champ

[HoundedHawk 83]

No one can top what Cael did.

Yes, they can. First, they can win more matches than Cael did. Second, they can do it in four straight years without a redshirt. Third, they can do it against an absolutely amazing opponent. Fourth, they can go undefeated at four different weights.

 

Bro, before you are going to sit there saying Montel Marion, Derek St John and Frank Molinaro are world class, check out Caels hit list. WORLD CLASS!

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

 

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

 

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

 

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

 

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

 

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

 

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

 

Rob Rohn - national champ

Bro, being you go creating another straw man, read my post. I never said those wrestlers are world class. I was only referencing Taylor. Also, as others have pointed out multiple times, you can't look at what happened after the fact as a judge of what happened at the time. Wrestlers develop. Taylor, in the here and now, and defeating him in the here and now, was a more impressive victory than Cael ever had in college.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Bro, being you go creating another straw man, read my post. I never said those wrestlers are world class. I was only referencing Taylor. Also, as others have pointed out multiple times, you can't look at what happened after the fact as a judge of what happened at the time. Wrestlers develop. Taylor, in the here and now, and defeating him in the here and now, was a more impressive victory than Cael ever had in college.

 

I have no idea how old you are, nor is it any of my business, but can you honestly say you are aware of Cael's competition back then as you are Kyle Dakes now?

 

Basically what you are saying is, beating David Taylor is a decisive factor of pushing Kid Dynamite over the likes of Cael?

[scribe 1,824]

Bro, being you go creating another straw man, read my post. I never said those wrestlers are world class. I was only referencing Taylor. Also, as others have pointed out multiple times, you can't look at what happened after the fact as a judge of what happened at the time. Wrestlers develop. Taylor, in the here and now, and defeating him in the here and now, was a more impressive victory than Cael ever had in college.

 

I have no idea how old you are, nor is it any of my business, but can you honestly say you are aware of Cael's competition back then as you are Kyle Dakes now?

 

Basically what you are saying is, beating David Taylor is a decisive factor of pushing Kid Dynamite over the likes of Cael?

 

Why not? There's poetry in beating Cael's pupil.

 

I believe Gable was obsessed with coaching wrestlers to take out top dogs.

[PRyan2012 347]

No one can top what Cael did.

Yes, they can. First, they can win more matches than Cael did. Second, they can do it in four straight years without a redshirt. Third, they can do it against an absolutely amazing opponent. Fourth, they can go undefeated at four different weights.

 

Bro, before you are going to sit there saying Montel Marion, Derek St John and Frank Molinaro are world class, check out Caels hit list. WORLD CLASS!

 

Brandon Eggum (multiple times) - World silver medalist

 

Brad Vering (multiple times) - national champ, World silver medalist, 2x Olympian

 

Andy Hrovat (multiple times) - Olympian

 

Daniel Cormier (multiple times) - Olympian, World bronze medalist

 

Justin Ruiz - World bronze medalist, 6x World team member

 

Mark Munoz (multiple times) - national champ

 

Damian Hahn - 2x national champ

 

Rob Rohn - national champ

 

Had to add Jon Trenge. He only tried twice to make teams in 03, 04 because of his eye injury. He lost to Cormier and Rowlands, no shame there.

 

 

Cael's list is amazing. I actually would have a hard time comparing any of the top guys of all time with that list much less Dake. We have to wait and see what St John, Taylor, Molinaro and Marion do at the next level. My guess is that none will come remotely close to a world team but we will see. Cael's guys were much higher pedigree-there is no argument here for Dake

[JerseyJoey 25]

We can only go by college, Dake's opponents haven't had the chance to go to the next level yet. By that measure, Dake wrestled the far superior guys. There is no argument for Cael.

[PRyan2012 347]

We do have to wait and see what they do, I said that. But you know none of guys Dake wrestled will even remotely come close to I bet even placing at the next level. Taylor making a national team will surprise me but lets see what happens in the next cycle. What Cael's oppenents, all of whom he thrashed went on to become elite world level guys. I simply totally disagree about the next level stuff-I think that matters. It is impossible to gauge different weight and different times without next level being brought into the discussion.

[JerseyJoey 25]

So if Jordan Burroughs wins the next 5 world championships that means that David Taylor wasn't as good a college wrestler as Justin Ruiz?

 

Also, by your logic a college win over Jamil Kelly (no short supply of those) is actually better than a win over Pat Smith. A win over Jared Frayer is better than a win over Jared Lawrence, Eric Larkin, Jesse Jntzen or Zachary Esposito? Heck, you are even counting Greco. So a college win over Rulon trumps a win over Carelton Hasselrig?

[PRyan2012 347]

Just saying it should be part of the criteria. Not totally saying one is better than the other but I think it matters here even more so because Cael's top opponents-they way, way over achieved at the next level, just look at what they did, pretty impressive and he not only beat them but thrashed them-everyone of those guys listed he either majored, teched or pinned. Take Burroughs out of this-he is a one time freak of nature kind of like Cael. Taylor would will still never place top 3 at the next level even without Burroughs-I am a PSU fan by the way! Hope he does but I doubt he will. St John will not. Molinaro at 145 will not and Marion at 145 will not-possible but we will just have to wait and see this next cycle. Any other guys, Caldwell maybe but I doubt it. Also I would also add Nick Preston to Cael's list-finished 2nd to Cormier a bunch at the next level.

[JerseyJoey 25]

Taylor will never place Top 3 even without JB? That is just dumb. He would have been in the 5th place match (if they had one) at the Olympic trials. That is after his sophomore year and probably training freestyle for a month.

[Mokoma 324]

Taylor will never place Top 3 even without JB? That is just dumb. He would have been in the 5th place match (if they had one) at the Olympic trials. That is after his sophomore year and probably training freestyle for a month.

I agree, that is just dumb. Taylor will likely be top 3 many times in the next 10 years. He will probably even make team or two, even with JB.

 

JB will not be the best in the world when he is 40. But to say even without JB that Taylor won't ever be top 3 is absurd.

[provocateur 12]

Great post by O-W-A.

 

Food for thought: In just less than two years I see a slightly different argument coming up after Steiber wins his fourth title without a redshirt.

[VakAttack 3,972]

Glad to see one of Dake's biggest fans speak out on this.

 

As a PSU fan, I have become a HUGE Kyle Dake fan. It still doesn't allow me to get caught in the moment saying he is the best ever or had a better career than a guy that smoked competition and going undefeated while doing so.

 

Props to both!

 

You haven't even allowed yourself to get so caught up in the moment saying Dake is better than Taylor!

[Vertical 4]

I am glad there are "ONLY" 345 days left until next year's NCAA Tournament. 6 pages so far arguing whether Taylor is really better than Dake...and now another 5 pages arguing that Dake may be better than Cael. WOW.

[KingofBing 12]

It is the reason that you must be at least 35 years old to run for Senate. You have to experience in life, and not look at your teenage life as the basis of all that is relevant.

 

Great, great point, except you only have to be 25 to run for senate. You are thinking about president. You can be a wrestling fan at any age though. And looking at this board, and at the ages of fans at wrestling events, I doubt there are too many who are not old enough for either office.

 

 

I trained with Kyle Dake....Kyle Dake is a friend of mine....you, sir are no Kyle Dake.