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headshuck

Nolf vs IMar, Zain vs Steiber

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9 minutes ago, headshuck said:

 

If they wrestle 11 times in both folk and free, how do you think the matches would go? 8-3 IMar? 9-2 IMar?

 

How about Zain vs Steiber? 7-4 Steiber?

 

I honestly don’t think Imar would have beat nolf ever again at folkstyle after nolf freshman year, freestyle completely different though, hopefully we see If a healthy Nolf can compete with Imar in free at trials, I think the zain steibler is pretty spot on but if 18 yr zain could knock off redshirt junior steiber ,I think junior/senior zain was much more dominate then Logan at any point in his career 

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29 minutes ago, headshuck said:

 

If they wrestle 11 times in both folk and free, how do you think the matches would go? 8-3 IMar? 9-2 IMar?

 

How about Zain vs Steiber? 7-4 Steiber?

 

That sounds about right for IMar/Nolf.  Rutherferd and Streebler ended about 50-50, so I'll  take Streebler 6-5.

 

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54 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I honestly don’t think Imar would have beat nolf ever again at folkstyle after nolf freshman year, freestyle completely different though, hopefully we see If a healthy Nolf can compete with Imar in free at trials, I think the zain steibler is pretty spot on but if 18 yr zain could knock off redshirt junior steiber ,I think junior/senior zain was much more dominate then Logan at any point in his career 

As we all know Logan was really sick that match. As we also know Logan took him to the shed when they mattered most

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44 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

That sounds about right for IMar/Nolf.  Rutherferd and Streebler ended about 50-50, so I'll  take Streebler 6-5.

 

Imar never really got any better folk style after that Year , nolf on the other hand literally dominated, even winning a title on one leg and he was creating his own moves along the way.

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1 minute ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Imar never really got any better folk style after that Year , nolf on the other hand literally dominated, even winning a title on one leg and he was creating his own moves along the way.

Nolf didn't improve much either, not that he needed to or even could have.  I doubt his stats would show him as more dominant later in his career.

Even though IMar almost lost the freestyle match against Nolf, he was clearly better and he would win tight matches against Nolf on a consistent basis independent of style.

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44 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Imar never really got any better folk style after that Year , nolf on the other hand literally dominated, even winning a title on one leg and he was creating his own moves along the way.

I don't think Imar got better after his freshmen year, in fact I think he was at his best. Seemed like he was just muscling everyone after that point.

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39 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Nolf didn't improve much either, not that he needed to or even could have.  I doubt his stats would show him as more dominant later in his career.

Even though IMar almost lost the freestyle match against Nolf, he was clearly better and he would win tight matches against Nolf on a consistent basis independent of style.

Imar did lose 1 freestyle match to nolf...and Imar never won another title after beating nolf, he went on to lose to cenzo twice, nolf went and won 3 titles and was challenged in maybe 2 matches in that time and his junior year beat Kemmerer, Jordan , and hidley in a row with 1 leg. That’s 3 ncaa finalists in a row with 1 leg. Nolf definitely improved a lot from his freshman year 

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50 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Imar did lose 1 freestyle match to nolf...and Imar never won another title after beating nolf, he went on to lose to cenzo twice, nolf went and won 3 titles and was challenged in maybe 2 matches in that time and his junior year beat Kemmerer, Jordan , and hidley in a row with 1 leg. That’s 3 ncaa finalists in a row with 1 leg. Nolf definitely improved a lot from his freshman year 

Kemerer wasn't a finalist.  The best he took was 3rd his RS freshman year.  But I get your point...

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12 minutes ago, pamela said:

Could Stieber get out from under Rutherford, and vice versa? Both were such hammers from top. I wonder if either guy would choose bottom.

consider the tOSU/PSU dynamic, PSU picks them apart on every aspect of positional wrestling. 

Retherford as a true freshman beating Stieber in his fourth year in a college room is incredible. 

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2 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

Kemerer wasn't a finalist.  The best he took was 3rd his RS freshman year.  But I get your point...

He would have been this year , and will be among the favorites next year...just pointing out that 1 legged run was tougher than anything Imar ever dealt with at ncaas and the year before he bonused his way through nationals...it’s crazy to say he didn’t improve from his freshman year on 

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6 hours ago, pamela said:

Could Stieber get out from under Rutherford, and vice versa? Both were such hammers from top. I wonder if either guy would choose bottom.

If I recall correctly Logan did not take down when it was his choice in the last couple of matches.

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Stieber beat Zain 8-6 in 2016 Olympic trials (and it wasn't really that close as Stieber gave up a late TD to preserve the win). That makes his career record 3-1 against Zain. (Scores were 8-6, 7-3, 7-3 and 2-4 SV). Have they wrestled any other time since college?

Stieber is a former World Champion, World Cup champion and has beaten multiple past World Champions. Zain is a former Cadet World Champion. Had Stieber not lost to Molinaro by criteria at the 2016 Olympic Trials there's a decent chance he would have won Gold as he had beaten Gold Medalist Ramonov 9 month earlier.

Also as far as common freestyle opponents Stieber easily beat Pico 13-4 while Pico beat Zain easily 8-5 in 2016 (4-1 takedowns). The Stieber match is the only time I've ever seen Pico get dominated in a match. (Pico is actually 6-0 in his career vs Zain and 8-5 was the closest match. Good thing for Zain that Pico didn't go to college or he might not have any NCAA individual championships)

Zain is a beast but I think ppl are forgetting how good Logan was. He is easily one of the top 5-10 USA wrestlers of the last decade.

Edited by DocBZ

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42 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Nolf got hurt wrestling cenzo in the semis 

and Martinez had a medical issue when he got pinned by Nolf.  But its still a pin and still a TF, correct?

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14 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

consider the tOSU/PSU dynamic, PSU picks them apart on every aspect of positional wrestling. 

Retherford as a true freshman beating Stieber in his fourth year in a college room is incredible. 

Its not like Zain was new to sport.you are putting too much on one meaningless match 

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1 hour ago, DocBZ said:

Zain is a beast but I think ppl are forgetting how good Logan was. He is easily one of the top 5-10 USA wrestlers of the last decade.

Not trying to be a jerk, but if we are talking about senior men's freestylers in the last 10 years I would disagree.  He is definitely not top-5, and is borderline top-10.  

I would put any Olympic medalist from 2012 and/or 2016 ahead of him, which would be:

1. Jordan Burroughs (gold 2012)
2. Kyle Snyder (gold 2016)
3. Jake Varner (gold 2012)
4. J'Den Cox (bronze 2016)
5. Tervel Dlagnev (bronze 2012)
6. Coleman Scott (bronze 2012)

I would also put any world champion in the last 10 years ahead of him, which would be:

7. David Taylor (2018)
8. Kyle Dake (2018, 2019)

Cael was on the 2011 world team and took 5th, and I don't think there is anyone on this board that would say he is better than Cael.  I also think a strong argument could be made to put him behind Frank Molinaro, who won the Olympic Team spot over Logan in 2016 and took 5th at the Olympics.  So for me, he's 11th and on a similar tier as James Green and Nick Gwiz.  

I get that Logan is a senior world champ, but I think it gets discounted because he won it in an Olympic year at a non-Olympic weight.  

 

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2 hours ago, shieldofpistis said:

Its not like Zain was new to sport.you are putting too much on one meaningless match 

1) Nothing at all meaningless about that match, i think thats a silly thing to say.

2) True freshmen Zain was stingy and road pretty much everybody but, the thing he came back as a sophmore was a completely different animal. 

In totality Retherford was in better shape, was a much better handfighter, controlled matches way better, and was as good or better on top. That makes it sound like I'm down on stieber but i'm not, I just think Retherford is high on the list of the best folkstyle wrestlers ever.

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2 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

Not trying to be a jerk, but if we are talking about senior men's freestylers in the last 10 years I would disagree.  He is definitely not top-5, and is borderline top-10.  

I would put any Olympic medalist from 2012 and/or 2016 ahead of him, which would be:

1. Jordan Burroughs (gold 2012)
2. Kyle Snyder (gold 2016)
3. Jake Varner (gold 2012)
4. J'Den Cox (bronze 2016)
5. Tervel Dlagnev (bronze 2012)
6. Coleman Scott (bronze 2012)

I would also put any world champion in the last 10 years ahead of him, which would be:

7. David Taylor (2018)
8. Kyle Dake (2018, 2019)

Cael was on the 2011 world team and took 5th, and I don't think there is anyone on this board that would say he is better than Cael.  I also think a strong argument could be made to put him behind Frank Molinaro, who won the Olympic Team spot over Logan in 2016 and took 5th at the Olympics.  So for me, he's 11th and on a similar tier as James Green and Nick Gwiz.  

I get that Logan is a senior world champ, but I think it gets discounted because he won it in an Olympic year at a non-Olympic weight.  

 

I wouldn't put an Olympic Bronze or Silver above a World Championship. Difference of opinion. I'm also taking into account NCAA Championships but not as highly as World results.

Snyder and Burroughs are the clear #1 and 2. #3 for me is Dake and #4 is Cox although they could be flip flopped. By the criteria I listed above I would put Stieber as #5 or #6 with Varner. 

I have Stieber over Taylor because both have 1 WC and Stieber has 4 NCAA titles vs 2 although I get your point about a WC in an Olympic year. Now Molinaro over Stieber because of 1 match and an Olympic 5th?  Come on man... And Stieber on the same tier as Green and Gwiz?? That's just ridiculous...

It feels like you are really reaching to keep him off your top 10 list for whatever reason. I'm surprised you didn't throw in some female wrestlers or Paralympic wrestlers to keep him off your top 15 list. 

Edited by DocBZ

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