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Nolf vs IMar, Zain vs Steiber

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18 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

Retherford as a true freshman beating Stieber in his fourth year in a college room is incredible. 

I agree with this... But I feel like the argument often goes that young Zain beat old Logan and thus would have surpassed him.  With that I disagree.  See their 2016 Olympic trials match sandwiched between Zains first 149 title and his first hodge season.

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4 minutes ago, madcat11 said:

I agree with this... But I feel like the argument often goes that young Zain beat old Logan and thus would have surpassed him.  With that I disagree.  See their 2016 Olympic trials match sandwiched between Zains first 149 title and his first hodge season.

Can you direct me to it? I looked but can't find it. 

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10 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Can you direct me to it? I looked but can't find it. 

My point wasn’t that he dominated, just that there is no clear evidence that Zain surpassed Logan at any point.  When debating the two we are of course splitting hairs.

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1 minute ago, hammerlockthree said:

He dominated 8-6?

No domination.  My point is just that Zain 2016 was high level Zain, and he hadn’t put space between himself and Logan.

Edited by madcat11

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1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

He dominated 8-6?

I wouldn't say dominated but Logan was up 8-4 very late in the match and "gave up" a TD so as to guarantee himself the win by not giving up a 4 and lose on criteria, which is the right thing to do. It wasn't that close of a match in reality.

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3 hours ago, DocBZ said:

I wouldn't put an Olympic Bronze or Silver above a World Championship. Difference of opinion. I'm also taking into account NCAA Championships but not as highly as World results.

Snyder and Burroughs are the clear #1 and 2. #3 for me is Dake and #4 is Cox although they could be flip flopped. By the criteria I listed above I would put Stieber as #5 or #6 with Varner. 

I have Stieber over Taylor because both have 1 WC and Stieber has 4 NCAA titles vs 2 although I get your point about a WC in an Olympic year. Now Molinaro over Stieber because of 1 match and an Olympic 5th?  Come on man... And Stieber on the same tier as Green and Gwiz?? That's just ridiculous...

It feels like you are really reaching to keep him off your top 10 list for whatever reason. I'm surprised you didn't throw in some female wrestlers or Paralympic wrestlers to keep him off your top 15 list. 

I wasn't ranking all the guys I have above Logan, it was a list of guys that I would put above him.  If I was ranking the best American freestylers in the last 10 years, it would be:

1. Jordan Burroughs
2. Kyle Snyder
3. Cael Sanderson
4. Jake Varner
5. J'Den Cox
6. Kyle Dake
7. David Taylor
8. Tervel Dlagnev
9. Coleman Scott
10. Frank Molinaro

Since this is freestyle, college accomplishments mean very little.  If you can't make an Olympic Team (let alone medal), then you should be behind all those who have (when discussing the best).  This is why you have all of the world champs in non-Olympic weights cutting or bumping up during Olympic years.  Winning Olympic medals is the end goal.   Guys like Dake and Taylor are the exception because they have been prevented from making the Olympics by guys like Burroughs and Cox.  

Logan, on the other hand, wasn't blocked from making the team by an Olympic medalist.  In fact, he took 5th or 6th at the 2016 Olympic Trials, which was the prime of his competitive career.  That alone should keep him out of the top-10.  

Your comment about girls and paralympians is silly.  

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46 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

I wasn't ranking all the guys I have above Logan, it was a list of guys that I would put above him.  If I was ranking the best American freestylers in the last 10 years, it would be:

1. Jordan Burroughs
2. Kyle Snyder
3. Cael Sanderson
4. Jake Varner
5. J'Den Cox
6. Kyle Dake
7. David Taylor
8. Tervel Dlagnev
9. Coleman Scott
10. Frank Molinaro

Since this is freestyle, college accomplishments mean very little.  If you can't make an Olympic Team (let alone medal), then you should be behind all those who have (when discussing the best).  This is why you have all of the world champs in non-Olympic weights cutting or bumping up during Olympic years.  Winning Olympic medals is the end goal.   Guys like Dake and Taylor are the exception because they have been prevented from making the Olympics by guys like Burroughs and Cox.  

Logan, on the other hand, wasn't blocked from making the team by an Olympic medalist.  In fact, he took 5th or 6th at the 2016 Olympic Trials, which was the prime of his competitive career.  That alone should keep him out of the top-10.  

Your comment about girls and paralympians is silly.  

.....its pretty clear you have something against Logan Stieber..have a nice day and enjoy your life. :)

Edited by DocBZ

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50 minutes ago, DocBZ said:

.....its pretty clear you have something against Logan Stieber..have a nice day and enjoy your life. :)

I have nothing against Logan and think he is one of the best NCAA wrestlers ever.  I own his arm bar and handfighting DVD's.  But his 4x NCAA championships were in folk, and that means nothing in freestyle. Your comment was that he was one of the top 5 or 10 American freestyle wrestlers in the last decade.  That is not true and supported by his international results. 

Maybe an Olympic bronze is generally not as great as an accomplishment as world gold, but Logan won his world championship in what was essentially a consolation tournament for those that didn't make the Olympics.  The gold Logan won is not the same as DT or Dake's.  In his other two appearances at worlds, he took 12th and 19th which reinforces the notion that his gold was fluky.  

To argue he is better than Frank, who beat Logan in the semis and won the Olympic Trials tournament is crazy.  They both had the same opportunity to win that spot on the Olympic Team and Frank came out on top.  In addition, Frank qualified the weight and took 5th at the Olympics which proved it was more than one good tournament by Frank.  Ask yourself this question honestly: do you think Logan would rather have been a 2016 Olympian or won the 61kg worlds consolation tournament a few months later?

Just because I don't consider him one of the top-10 American freestyle wrestlers in the last decade doesn't mean I have something against him.  

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7 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

I have nothing against Logan and think he is one of the best NCAA wrestlers ever.  I own his arm bar and handfighting DVD's.  But his 4x NCAA championships were in folk, and that means nothing in freestyle. Your comment was that he was one of the top 5 or 10 American freestyle wrestlers in the last decade.  That is not true and supported by his international results. 

Maybe an Olympic bronze is generally not as great as an accomplishment as world gold, but Logan won his world championship in what was essentially a consolation tournament for those that didn't make the Olympics.  The gold Logan won is not the same as DT or Dake's.  In his other two appearances at worlds, he took 12th and 19th which reinforces the notion that his gold was fluky.  

To argue he is better than Frank, who beat Logan in the semis and won the Olympic Trials tournament is crazy.  They both had the same opportunity to win that spot on the Olympic Team and Frank came out on top.  In addition, Frank qualified the weight and took 5th at the Olympics which proved it was more than one good tournament by Frank.  Ask yourself this question honestly: do you think Logan would rather have been a 2016 Olympian or won the 61kg worlds consolation tournament a few months later?

Just because I don't consider him one of the top-10 American freestyle wrestlers in the last decade doesn't mean I have something against him.  

While I agree that technically Frank’s result is more impressive to the avid fan, when they both walk into a bar and Logan gets to say he was World Champion, he’s going to be more impressive to the general population.

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On 6/23/2020 at 4:06 PM, hammerlockthree said:

1) Nothing at all meaningless about that match, i think thats a silly thing to say.

2) True freshmen Zain was stingy and road pretty much everybody but, the thing he came back as a sophmore was a completely different animal. 

In totality Retherford was in better shape, was a much better handfighter, controlled matches way better, and was as good or better on top. That makes it sound like I'm down on stieber but i'm not, I just think Retherford is high on the list of the best folkstyle wrestlers ever.

I'm not an expert but didn't the commentators say Zain had illegal hand contact that wasn't c sd called? I forget.  

 

I think snyder bo nickel  Spencer lee. Valencia all better folk than Zain...and of course dake.

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19 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I'm not an expert but didn't the commentators say Zain had illegal hand contact that wasn't c sd called? I forget.  

 

I think snyder bo nickel  Spencer lee. Valencia all better folk than Zain...and of course dake.

I could see arguing for those guys, but I'd only accept Dake.

My argument for Zain would obviously vary by person, but on the whole I would say I like him because he's one of the most problematic people to wrestle ever. You can't take down, he spent every moment in neutral in his opponents face yet his pace was so high it seemed like he was barely touched by his opponents at all, you can't shoot because his arm drag re-attack was brutal, always a threat to shoot, he doesn't get tired.... the path the victory is as unclear as it gets.

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On 6/22/2020 at 8:37 PM, hammerlockthree said:

I don't think Imar got better after his freshmen year, in fact I think he was at his best. Seemed like he was just muscling everyone after that point.

He was phenomenal, so explosive and aggressive, as a freshman, just kept attacking and attacking with so many different ways to score. Then every year after that he got more conservative.  

It reminded me of Delgado, these California Perry recruits who won their first championship attacking relentlessly, then got much more tactical and less aggressive when they won their second championship, then lost their edge. 

Delgado was brutally criticized for his cautious style in his second championship (junior) year which was really bizarre because as a sophomore his stated strategy was to shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot some more.  The contrast was best illustrated by his two Big Ten titles:  2013, endless attacks vs McDonough, takedowns all the way to the end, with his home crowd going nuts; 2014, a truly dreadful snooze fest, 11 minutes of wrestling without a takedown with Megaludis taking all the committed shots, Cael in the corner wondering what had happened to wrestling, the crowd booing, and Megaludis shouting and threatening him during and after the handshake. 

Martinez wasn't as extreme but the conservative transformation was pretty similar.  

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I don’t think Imar grew more conservative. He had a minimal gas tank soph year trying to suck down to 65kg, and when he bumped up to 165lbs he wasn’t able to ridiculously outmuscle opponents anymore. He grew into 74kg/163lbs and is horsing guys around again.

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I just posted something about this on the international forum.  Despite being a 4xer and a world champ people always undersell Stieber's accomplishments because of inconsistency due to injury/weight near the end of his freestyle career.  Dude owns career international wins over Romanov, Aliyev, Lomtadze, Chakaev, and Sat.  He destroyed Pico and owns the advantage in the career series with Zane.  Stieber in top form is the man.  As far Stieber vs. Molinaro, props to Frank for winning the trials and making the team but Logan had a win over that year's Olympic Gold Medalist Romanov, won worlds at a lower weight, and I believe owns the advantage in their career series.

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4 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

I just posted something about this on the international forum.  Despite being a 4xer and a world champ people always undersell Stieber's accomplishments because of inconsistency due to injury/weight near the end of his freestyle career.  Dude owns career international wins over Romanov, Aliyev, Lomtadze, Chakaev, and Sat.  He destroyed Pico and owns the advantage in the career series with Zane.  Stieber in top form is the man.  As far Stieber vs. Molinaro, props to Frank for winning the trials and making the team but Logan had a win over that year's Olympic Gold Medalist Romanov, won worlds at a lower weight, and I believe owns the advantage in their career series.

These are very good points, but he gets discounted for the following reasons:

1. Although it has nothing to do with freestyle, his NCAA Championship in 2012 will always be questioned because most people believe that JO took him down at the end. So his four NCAA Championships are not held in the same regard as Cael, Dake, or Pat Smith, who all won theirs with no controversy.

2. He never made an Olympic Team.

3. He took 12th and 19th the other two times he went to Worlds.

4. His World Championship was won in a "consolation" Worlds with only non-2016 Olympians being eligible to enter.

5. Was never dominant domestically (never won the US Open or US Senior Freestyle National Championship)

6. The argument has been made by others on this forum (not me) that aside from his wins over Beka and Chakaev (to win gold in 2016) his wins over Romanov (Baku 2015), Sat (Beat the Streets 2013), and Aliyev (2018 World Cup) were when those guys weren't in peak form.  

DocBZ is gonna jump all over me but I'm not a Logan hater.  He was a dominant NCAA folkstyler but he didn't have anywhere near the same success in free.  As you pointed out, he was super inconsistent.  Logan has a lot of big wins but also many head scratching losses.  The fact that many on this thread don't think he is better than Zain is proof of that.

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1 hour ago, ShakaAloha said:

These are very good points, but he gets discounted for the following reasons:

1. Although it has nothing to do with freestyle, his NCAA Championship in 2012 will always be questioned because most people believe that JO took him down at the end. So his four NCAA Championships are not held in the same regard as Cael, Dake, or Pat Smith, who all won theirs with no controversy.

2. He never made an Olympic Team.

3. He took 12th and 19th the other two times he went to Worlds.

4. His World Championship was won in a "consolation" Worlds with only non-2016 Olympians being eligible to enter.

5. Was never dominant domestically (never won the US Open or US Senior Freestyle National Championship)

6. The argument has been made by others on this forum (not me) that aside from his wins over Beka and Chakaev (to win gold in 2016) his wins over Romanov (Baku 2015), Sat (Beat the Streets 2013), and Aliyev (2018 World Cup) were when those guys weren't in peak form.  

DocBZ is gonna jump all over me but I'm not a Logan hater.  He was a dominant NCAA folkstyler but he didn't have anywhere near the same success in free.  As you pointed out, he was super inconsistent.  Logan has a lot of big wins but also many head scratching losses.  The fact that many on this thread don't think he is better than Zain is proof of that.

I think it's proof of Penn State bias and based on how dominant Zain was his last 3 years in college.  Does it seem a bit coincidental that all of those world champs/medalist were not at their best when he beat them (I might buy this argument for 1 or 2 but 5 times is certainly a lot of times to get lucky).  Stieber has been ultra elite on every level he has competed.  Ohio 4xer, age group world medalist, multiple time Fargo Champ, 4th at the US Open as a hs junior, 4x NCAA champ, World Champ.  If you question the legitimacy of Stieber's World Title than you have to question Dake and Cox's as well because they are at non-Olympic weights and they arguably could not make the US squad at their Olympic weights.  Many guys have trouble with injuries, weight, burnout, and other things at the end of long competitive career.  I would argue that Stieber was about as consistent as you can get on every level until those last 2 years.  

I would like to address the JO thing separate.  JO is a great wrestler and a 2x champ.  A junior JO (coming off an undefeated NCAA championship as a sophmore) lost to a redshirt freshman Stieber based on the rules of that time.  Whatever you think of the ending, if you re watch the match Stieber was the aggressor and controlled the pace throughout, this after being handled by Oliver in their meeting earlier in the year.  That in itself says a lot about Logan Stieber's greatness.  JO is kind of a foil for Logan Stieber as he gets tons credit for his potential in freestyle/international but has never really had the results on the international scene that a lot of people (particularly on this board) think he should.  This is not meant to disparage JO, he is a great wrestler, but when you look at the perception of each guy vs. the actual results it doesn't line up.

Edited by balanceseeker

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JO, Stieber, Retherford, Yanni , Metcalf - all damn good in usa but wheres the medals in international at 65 ?? 

not good enough. I'll take metcalf out of that group in a round robin and he couldn't do it. Metcalf hung tough in most of his losses on the big stage - Stieber got blown out like he didn't belong - 61 non olympic weight is different animal.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by alliseeisgold

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17 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

JO, Stieber, Retherford, Yanni , Metcalf - all damn good in usa but wheres the medals in international at 65 ?? 

not good enough. I'll take metcalf out of that group in a round robin and he couldn't do it. Metcalf hung tough in most of his losses on the big stage - Stieber got blown out like he didn't belong - 61 non olympic weight is different animal.

 

 

 

 

 

You are ignoring the very interesting and complex issue of what translates from folk to free, and elite to ultra elite. 

Their freestyle careers are not a reflection on their folk.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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