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Nolf vs IMar, Zain vs Steiber

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19 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

JO, Stieber, Retherford, Yanni , Metcalf - all damn good in usa but wheres the medals in international at 65 ?? 

not good enough. I'll take metcalf out of that group in a round robin and he couldn't do it. Metcalf hung tough in most of his losses on the big stage - Stieber got blown out like he didn't belong - 61 non olympic weight is different animal.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll take yianni, barely 21 and already has better wins than Metcalf. His style is made for freestyle. Zain seems to have a similar style to Metcalf so I dont expect much from him. Wasn't Stieber undersized for 65k? JO seems to have the talent and ideal style but lacks the results. IMO once yianni focuses most of his training on free, he'll be the guy to beat.

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On 6/27/2020 at 9:06 AM, balanceseeker said:

I think it's proof of Penn State bias and based on how dominant Zain was his last 3 years in college.  Does it seem a bit coincidental that all of those world champs/medalist were not at their best when he beat them (I might buy this argument for 1 or 2 but 5 times is certainly a lot of times to get lucky).  Stieber has been ultra elite on every level he has competed.  Ohio 4xer, age group world medalist, multiple time Fargo Champ, 4th at the US Open as a hs junior, 4x NCAA champ, World Champ.  If you question the legitimacy of Stieber's World Title than you have to question Dake and Cox's as well because they are at non-Olympic weights and they arguably could not make the US squad at their Olympic weights.  Many guys have trouble with injuries, weight, burnout, and other things at the end of long competitive career.  I would argue that Stieber was about as consistent as you can get on every level until those last 2 years.  

I would like to address the JO thing separate.  JO is a great wrestler and a 2x champ.  A junior JO (coming off an undefeated NCAA championship as a sophmore) lost to a redshirt freshman Stieber based on the rules of that time.  Whatever you think of the ending, if you re watch the match Stieber was the aggressor and controlled the pace throughout, this after being handled by Oliver in their meeting earlier in the year.  That in itself says a lot about Logan Stieber's greatness.  JO is kind of a foil for Logan Stieber as he gets tons credit for his potential in freestyle/international but has never really had the results on the international scene that a lot of people (particularly on this board) think he should.  This is not meant to disparage JO, he is a great wrestler, but when you look at the perception of each guy vs. the actual results it doesn't line up.

Here is the difference with Dake and Cox compared to Stieber.  Cox has an Olympic bronze and a world bronze at 86 (Olympic weight) in addition to his two world titles at 92.  He has medalled at every world championship or Olympics he has entered.  Dake has two world golds in the only two world championships he's entered.  The second world gold proves the first wasn't a fluke.  

I agree with your argument about JO.

You have not addressed points #2-5 from my earlier post.  

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Can we please put the tired argument of non-olympic weights being a sham to bed. Just because an athlete cannot afford a 20 pound swing does not mean they are any less talented. JB at 74kg is not the same as JB at 79kg. Dake at 79kg is not the same as Dake at 74. Same with Cox, Snyder, Taylor, Sidakov, Otoguro, etc.

I'm sorry that I have trouble believing an athlete that could very well be the best in the world but sucking 5-7kg or trying to add the same amount of weight is still going to have peak performance. Why even have weight classes if that is true.

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On 6/29/2020 at 3:57 PM, hammerlockthree said:

stieber is vegan?

I believe he is vegetarian.  I remember hearing he experimented with veganism towards the end of his competitive career.  I don't know that this was responsible for his fall off in production.

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On 6/27/2020 at 2:16 PM, ShakaAloha said:

These are very good points, but he gets discounted for the following reasons:

1. Although it has nothing to do with freestyle, his NCAA Championship in 2012 will always be questioned because most people believe that JO took him down at the end. So his four NCAA Championships are not held in the same regard as Cael, Dake, or Pat Smith, who all won theirs with no controversy.

2. He never made an Olympic Team.

3. He took 12th and 19th the other two times he went to Worlds.

4. His World Championship was won in a "consolation" Worlds with only non-2016 Olympians being eligible to enter.

5. Was never dominant domestically (never won the US Open or US Senior Freestyle National Championship)

6. The argument has been made by others on this forum (not me) that aside from his wins over Beka and Chakaev (to win gold in 2016) his wins over Romanov (Baku 2015), Sat (Beat the Streets 2013), and Aliyev (2018 World Cup) were when those guys weren't in peak form.  

DocBZ is gonna jump all over me but I'm not a Logan hater.  He was a dominant NCAA folkstyler but he didn't have anywhere near the same success in free.  As you pointed out, he was super inconsistent.  Logan has a lot of big wins but also many head scratching losses.  The fact that many on this thread don't think he is better than Zain is proof of that.

Point number 5 is the real kicker.  Domestic losses to Kennedy, molinaro, graff, Eierman and some others were the type of thing that wouldn’t happen to him in folk.

 

Point #6 is a step away from they had the flu (Romanov in his Olympic gold season, Aliyev 2018?!).  Logan was inconsistent, but had a damn high ceiling.  Disagreement with that would be incorrect.

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On 6/28/2020 at 12:07 AM, alliseeisgold said:

JO, Stieber, Retherford, Yanni , Metcalf - all damn good in usa but wheres the medals in international at 65 ?? 

not good enough. I'll take metcalf out of that group in a round robin and he couldn't do it. Metcalf hung tough in most of his losses on the big stage - Stieber got blown out like he didn't belong - 61 non olympic weight is different animal.

 

 

 

 

 

Yianni is young.  And he has only had a man body for 18 months.

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On 7/1/2020 at 12:08 AM, balanceseeker said:

I believe he is vegetarian.  I remember hearing he experimented with veganism towards the end of his competitive career.  I don't know that this was responsible for his fall off in production.

It's a shame, and if folks would like to get into it, then let's play.  Logie was probably my favorite wrestler, as a fan, to watch these past 5-7 years.  I felt that I perceived a definitive dropoff in production, muscle tone, and overall stamina during this experimental phase where he dabbled with vegetarian/vegan. 

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