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So why is it even a debate if "people would just believe the science"??  Because scientist are debating it.  People think the scientist they believe are right and the others are wrong and vice versa.  The problem comes is that you get people who bash others for believing something different.  Then admit that the "science" out there is still unknown yet turn around and talk out of the other side of their mouth and believe what they want to believe to fit the narrative they want it to fit...hence it becomes political.  And the only thing that is for certain is that this somehow has turned into a political witch hunt on the president...like Russia and every other asinine thing the stupid politicians and media come up with.  Again...I don't even like Trump...he has done some good stuff but he has also done and said some seriously head shaking things...but in the end he is ALL our president...just like Obama was (who I voted for the first time), just like Bush was, just like Billy the rapist Clinton was (who I voted for the first time).

Back to Covid...if some of you seriously don't think it is political...how do bars and restaurants and beaches get ALL the blame for the recent uptick??  And yet massive gatherings of protestors, looters, and rioters all around the country doesn't even get mentioned as a cause??

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5 minutes ago, dman115 said:

So why is it even a debate if "people would just believe the science"??  Because scientist are debating it.  People think the scientist they believe are right and the others are wrong and vice versa.  The problem comes is that you get people who bash others for believing something different.  Then admit that the "science" out there is still unknown yet turn around and talk out of the other side of their mouth and believe what they want to believe to fit the narrative they want it to fit...hence it becomes political.  And the only thing that is for certain is that this somehow has turned into a political witch hunt on the president...like Russia and every other asinine thing the stupid politicians and media come up with.  Again...I don't even like Trump...he has done some good stuff but he has also done and said some seriously head shaking things...but in the end he is ALL our president...just like Obama was (who I voted for the first time), just like Bush was, just like Billy the rapist Clinton was (who I voted for the first time).

Back to Covid...if some of you seriously don't think it is political...how do bars and restaurants and beaches get ALL the blame for the recent uptick??  And yet massive gatherings of protestors, looters, and rioters all around the country doesn't even get mentioned as a cause??

Okay, when was the last time the ENTIRE PLANET was on the same page with something? 

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5 minutes ago, dman115 said:

So why is it even a debate if "people would just believe the science"??  Because scientist are debating it.  People think the scientist they believe are right and the others are wrong and vice versa.  The problem comes is that you get people who bash others for believing something different.  Then admit that the "science" out there is still unknown yet turn around and talk out of the other side of their mouth and believe what they want to believe to fit the narrative they want it to fit...hence it becomes political.  And the only thing that is for certain is that this somehow has turned into a political witch hunt on the president...like Russia and every other asinine thing the stupid politicians and media come up with.  Again...I don't even like Trump...he has done some good stuff but he has also done and said some seriously head shaking things...but in the end he is ALL our president...just like Obama was (who I voted for the first time), just like Bush was, just like Billy the rapist Clinton was (who I voted for the first time).

Back to Covid...if some of you seriously don't think it is political...how do bars and restaurants and beaches get ALL the blame for the recent uptick??  And yet massive gatherings of protestors, looters, and rioters all around the country doesn't even get mentioned as a cause??

It's not a serious debate among the doctors and scientists.  There will always be outliers but the percentages are quite low. If you notice on the news- it's mainly drs, epidemiologists (including those on the task force) and democrats advocating for caution and mainly republicans dismissing. And that's going away- at least as far as wearing a mask is concerned.

They don't get blamed for ALL of it but when you look at people in bars and restaurants and beaches they weren't wearing masks whereas most of the protest were pretty high percentages of mask wearers. Pretty simple. And there are articles mentioning exactly this about protests where the stats as of yet don't show problems from them. Also, I'm seeing that beaches might not be as much of a problem as bars. My guess here is that at bars you get drunk more than at the others. Also, you tend to go to bars with co-workers or other friends that you aren't already exposed to. A high percentage of people going to the beach are families and college kids. Families are likely exposed to each other. College kids are less likely to show symptoms.

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15 minutes ago, dman115 said:

So why is it even a debate if "people would just believe the science"??  Because scientist are debating it.  People think the scientist they believe are right and the others are wrong and vice versa.  The problem comes is that you get people who bash others for believing something different.  Then admit that the "science" out there is still unknown yet turn around and talk out of the other side of their mouth and believe what they want to believe to fit the narrative they want it to fit...hence it becomes political.  And the only thing that is for certain is that this somehow has turned into a political witch hunt on the president...like Russia and every other asinine thing the stupid politicians and media come up with.  Again...I don't even like Trump...he has done some good stuff but he has also done and said some seriously head shaking things...but in the end he is ALL our president...just like Obama was (who I voted for the first time), just like Bush was, just like Billy the rapist Clinton was (who I voted for the first time).

Back to Covid...if some of you seriously don't think it is political...how do bars and restaurants and beaches get ALL the blame for the recent uptick??  And yet massive gatherings of protestors, looters, and rioters all around the country doesn't even get mentioned as a cause??

The science isn’t unknown. It’s just that 99% of our population is scientifically illiterate and can’t understand the difference between pseudoscience and double blind controlled trials. That includes some otherwise well educated people. 

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LHU...I am with you and totally agree.  My point is about people who say...but...but...just believe the science and then turn around and say doesn't know anything yet...or they pick and choose what science to believe and then don't believe the other stuff.  My comments were to talk about how this has become political when it shouldn't be and deny that it is when they turn around and say things that make it political...it is quite funny. 

To me let science figure it.  Until we know more and/or have a safe vaccine, take common sense precautions without taking peoples freedoms away or do things to kill the economy and peoples lively hood.  If people want to be super cautious...GREAT...stay home and do what you feel you need to do...just don't criticize people that don't do what you do...and vice versa...if you don't want to take any precautions than don't criticize people that do.

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2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The science isn’t unknown. It’s just that 99% of our population is scientifically illiterate and can’t understand the difference between pseudoscience and double blind controlled trials. That includes some otherwise well educated people. 

I should have said...ALL the science about this isn't known.  And I agree with the 99% thing...people listen to what the "experts" say and then twist it into their own interpretation (local politicians have done this consistently).  People can literally hear the exact same thing and have completely different take always from what was said.

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7 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

It's not a serious debate among the doctors and scientists.  There will always be outliers but the percentages are quite low. If you notice on the news- it's mainly drs, epidemiologists (including those on the task force) and democrats advocating for caution and mainly republicans dismissing. And that's going away- at least as far as wearing a mask is concerned.

They don't get blamed for ALL of it but when you look at people in bars and restaurants and beaches they weren't wearing masks whereas most of the protest were pretty high percentages of mask wearers. Pretty simple. And there are articles mentioning exactly this about protests where the stats as of yet don't show problems from them. Also, I'm seeing that beaches might not be as much of a problem as bars. My guess here is that at bars you get drunk more than at the others. Also, you tend to go to bars with co-workers or other friends that you aren't already exposed to. A high percentage of people going to the beach are families and college kids. Families are likely exposed to each other. College kids are less likely to show symptoms.

Some of your political leaning is showing gimp...I don't consider myself neither republican nor democrat...but you saying "mainly republicans dismissing" is just outright false.  Like I said in my recent post above...it is how people interpret what the "experts" say.  From my seat republicans want to take a more wait and see approach with the attitude let's make sure the "treatment isn't worse than the disease"..i.e., crash our economy and destroy lively hoods, mental heath impacts, etc....and then I agree, democrats have typically taken a very conservative cautious approach..i.e., stay home, close certain businesses, wear masks, don't go socialize, etc.

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6 minutes ago, dman115 said:

LHU...I am with you and totally agree.  My point is about people who say...but...but...just believe the science and then turn around and say doesn't know anything yet...or they pick and choose what science to believe and then don't believe the other stuff.  My comments were to talk about how this has become political when it shouldn't be and deny that it is when they turn around and say things that make it political...it is quite funny. 

To me let science figure it.  Until we know more and/or have a safe vaccine, take common sense precautions without taking peoples freedoms away or do things to kill the economy and peoples lively hood.  If people want to be super cautious...GREAT...stay home and do what you feel you need to do...just don't criticize people that don't do what you do...and vice versa...if you don't want to take any precautions than don't criticize people that do.

The sad thing is that if people just acted responsibly in this country by practicing social distancing and wearing ppe, as they have in Germany and South Korea, we would be able to have an almost normal society/economy as we wait for the vaccine likely in December/January. Could we go to bars or indoor restaurants? No, probably not. But we could do most other things almost normally. Of course, wearing a mask somehow became a political issue and matter of personal “freedom.” Btw I agree that having protests in the middle of a pandemic was an awful idea-although it’s very difficult to stop protests from happening. 
 

This virus really emphasizes the whole “two Americas phenomenon” though. Not left vs right but the fact that this country is home to both people who are going to deliver a vaccine and effective treatments in a record time never seen before in human history, but also others who can’t seem to grasp that covering your mouth and avoiding crowds limits the spread of a respiratory virus. 

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

Some of your political leaning is showing gimp...I don't consider myself neither republican nor democrat...but you saying "mainly republicans dismissing" is just outright false.  Like I said in my recent post above...it is how people interpret what the "experts" say.  From my seat republicans want to take a more wait and see approach with the attitude let's make sure the "treatment isn't worse than the disease"..i.e., crash our economy and destroy lively hoods, mental heath impacts, etc....and then I agree, democrats have typically taken a very conservative cautious approach..i.e., stay home, close certain businesses, wear masks, don't go socialize, etc.

In other words, the Republicans dismiss what science is saying. You said it right there. I didn't say you said I said they said.

Thanks.

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2 hours ago, dman115 said:

Back to Covid...if some of you seriously don't think it is political...how do bars and restaurants and beaches get ALL the blame for the recent uptick??  And yet massive gatherings of protestors, looters, and rioters all around the country doesn't even get mentioned as a cause??

There are definitely a lot of political aspects to it, but I don't think this is one of them.

I'm no expert, but I tried to look into this as well, and I think the main argument (which is a good one IMO) is you have places like NY and NJ where cases are declining, but still had massive protests.  It seems almost all of the places seeing rising cases/hospitalizations were ones that "reopened."   But not all states where massive protests happened are seeing rising cases/hospitalizations.

 

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

The sad thing is that if people just acted responsibly in this country by practicing social distancing and wearing ppe, as they have in Germany and South Korea, we would be able to have an almost normal society/economy as we wait for the vaccine likely in December/January. Could we go to bars or indoor restaurants? No, probably not. But we could do most other things almost normally. Of course, wearing a mask somehow became a political issue and matter of personal “freedom.” Btw I agree that having protests in the middle of a pandemic was an awful idea-although it’s very difficult to stop protests from happening. 
 

 

This 100%.  It's crazy to me that the people refusing to wear a mask are the same ones saying "we need to reopen for the sake of the economy!"   Well, wear you mask and it will be safer to reopen...

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So when do we chose to believe the "science" and when do not?  Case in point...have the "experts" been wrong more than they have been right with this pandemic??  Again, I am not saying don't listen to the "experts" but pointing out the fact of how people can and are having different ideas about this and how this becomes political for some reason.

And gimp if you take what I wrote that republicans are just dismissing it than you clearly want to read and interpret things to fit your narrative.  No use having a respectful conversation with you than.

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17 minutes ago, dman115 said:

And gimp if you take what I wrote that republicans are just dismissing it than you clearly want to read and interpret things to fit your narrative.  No use having a respectful conversation with you than.

You're the one missing the whole point. Nothing to do with a narrative on my part.

You said Republicans aren't dismissing but are taking a wait and see attitude. That is in and of itself dismissing the science. The science was telling us DON'T wait and see- ACT!

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Science gives recommendations based on what they know now and how they are interpreting information they admit isn't complete...can we all agree that is what is happening??  And the "experts" are basing it off a very narrow view point...an infectious disease expert is going to give RECOMMENDATIONS to have ZERO infections or transmittals.  That is where the divide happens...what does one chose to do with recommendations, based on a single view point.   And people are choosing to only listen to those who have...and not meant as a diss or criticism, but just as fact...been wrong quite a bit...some could say more than correct.  Point being is that the political stuff comes into play when the righty's tend to take those recommendations, bounce then off of economists, the public, use some "common sense", historical science, etc. to determine how they interpret the recommendations.  And the lefty's tend to do the same but side with the more risk adverse and emotional side of things and take the "expert scientists" recommendations as gospel over any of the other inputs that go into this whole thing.  Than what do us "commoner's" do is we chose to listen to which side we want to based on the narrative we want to believe based on how we think and interpret things...hence a political divide.  Where I have issue is when people force their believes and make judgments of others based on inexact science, narrow minded recommendations, and the ridiculously stupid talking heads of our government, both local and national.

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anyone who thinks the boogie bug has not been politicized (like every other damn thing in this country) are kidding themselves...

anyone who can not see the two distinct narratives that are being pushed and manipulated by the two distinct factions in this country are blind, a zealot themselves, or just seriously below average...

like waaaaaay below...

like H3 below... 

the cold hard truth is the boogie bug is not in fact that bad... it just removes those who would not have been here 200 years ago anyway and pretty much leaves alone everyone else who is reasonably healthy... 

that is nature...

trying to stop nature is the height of arrogance...

but, it has generated exactly what it was designed to... fear

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18 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Science gives recommendations based on what they know now and how they are interpreting information they admit isn't complete...can we all agree that is what is happening??  And the "experts" are basing it off a very narrow view point...an infectious disease expert is going to give RECOMMENDATIONS to have ZERO infections or transmittals.  That is where the divide happens...what does one chose to do with recommendations, based on a single view point.   And people are choosing to only listen to those who have...and not meant as a diss or criticism, but just as fact...been wrong quite a bit...some could say more than correct.  Point being is that the political stuff comes into play when the righty's tend to take those recommendations, bounce then off of economists, the public, use some "common sense", historical science, etc. to determine how they interpret the recommendations.  And the lefty's tend to do the same but side with the more risk adverse and emotional side of things and take the "expert scientists" recommendations as gospel over any of the other inputs that go into this whole thing.  Than what do us "commoner's" do is we chose to listen to which side we want to based on the narrative we want to believe based on how we think and interpret things...hence a political divide.  Where I have issue is when people force their believes and make judgments of others based on inexact science, narrow minded recommendations, and the ridiculously stupid talking heads of our government, both local and national.

I think this is a pretty fair interpretation of what is happening, yes.   Although I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying they've been wrong more than correct.

A lot of the anti-maskers though are super annoying because they say "why were we initially told we didn't have to wear masks then?!?!"  So they believed what the "experts" said at first, but not now?  Besides, the mask guidance was changed pretty early on and from what I've seen there have been quite a few studies/examples that seem to show their effectiveness.  I'm not anti-Trump but I feel his refusal to wear a mask seems to be playing a major role in many people thinking wearing a mask is taking away their freedomz

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28 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I think this is a pretty fair interpretation of what is happening, yes.   Although I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying they've been wrong more than correct.

A lot of the anti-maskers though are super annoying because they say "why were we initially told we didn't have to wear masks then?!?!"  So they believed what the "experts" said at first, but not now?  Besides, the mask guidance was changed pretty early on and from what I've seen there have been quite a few studies/examples that seem to show their effectiveness.  I'm not anti-Trump but I feel his refusal to wear a mask seems to be playing a major role in many people thinking wearing a mask is taking away their freedomz

Initially, people were thinking of wearing masks to protect themselves (with good reason). That reason didn't hold up super well with most masks other than n95s. At the time, the country's inaction left us with too few of them so don't wear was to make sure health care people had enough. Eventually, we realized the majority of masks for the public did a decent job (not 100%) of preventing the spread FROM the wearer.

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Super interesting how the "wear a mask" has become the go to now to stopping the spread...this is now the focal point of this whole thing.  I can understand both sides of the mask thing...it probably does reduce spray of fluids from those that don't know how to sneeze or cough...but I get caught up on things because there is no evidence (at least I can't find any out there on the interwebs...someone help me if I am just not looking in the right spots) that people just walking through a grocery store or Walmart, or down the street breathing normally has transmitted the Covid.  Heck...even just talking to someone doesn't seem to be spreading this virus all over the place.  And some of the evidence holds true in that in the beginning of the lock downs, cashiers and other employees that work at grocery stores and the big box stores didn't start out wearing masks, thus they would have been getting infected at a very high rate, yet that didn't happen (again if it did I have not seen any info on it).  Is wearing a mask fun...NO!  Will and do I do it if required, of course. 

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3 minutes ago, dman115 said:

 there is no evidence (at least I can't find any out there on the interwebs...someone help me if I am just not looking in the right spots) 

https://www.livescience.com/hair-stylists-infected-covid19-face-masks.html

 

4 minutes ago, dman115 said:

 And some of the evidence holds true in that in the beginning of the lock downs, cashiers and other employees that work at grocery stores and the big box stores didn't start out wearing masks, thus they would have been getting infected at a very high rate, yet that didn't happen (again if it did I have not seen any info on it).  

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2020/05/27/covid-19-has-killed-100-grocery-store-workers-vitalina-williams-was-one-of-the-first

main-qimg-1d151b877869246b51ec76305ca4dd17

 

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57 minutes ago, D3 for LU said:

I was told that there would be no pee-pee... why oh why with the pee-pee?

(OH, the humanity! )

D3

No one made aware of the no Pee-pee poicy

 

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Interesting articles.  But does a small percentage in one area make it true for all of the US?  Not trying to argue just pointing out how stuff like this that some claim is "science" and how can people not believe science?  It is heart tugging stories like above of what sounds like a wonderful woman who worked at a grocery store and tragically died because she got Covid and had other risk factors, and then people extrapolate that out to be "science".  I am not arguing against wearing a mask here...just again pointing out how people are able to argue the validity of certain things and thus don't just listen to "experts" and trust the "science".  Billy on here appears to be one of the more knowledgeable in regards to science...I have a biology degree and understand pharmaceutical research and the scientific method, but have been out of that industry for a long time now and would never claim to be an "expert" by any means...especially in infectious disease.  Anyway, I am sure Billy would agree that a lot of things the "experts" are doing is taking information that wasn't obtained via the scientific method and extrapolate out its meaning in a scientific manner.  Thus, it opens the door for misinterpretation and dare I say debate amongst the politicians and us commoners. 

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