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7 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Interesting articles.  But does a small percentage in one area make it true for all of the US?  Not trying to argue just pointing out how stuff like this that some claim is "science" and how can people not believe science?  It is heart tugging stories like above of what sounds like a wonderful woman who worked at a grocery store and tragically died because she got Covid and had other risk factors, and then people extrapolate that out to be "science".  I am not arguing against wearing a mask here...just again pointing out how people are able to argue the validity of certain things and thus don't just listen to "experts" and trust the "science".  Billy on here appears to be one of the more knowledgeable in regards to science...I have a biology degree and understand pharmaceutical research and the scientific method, but have been out of that industry for a long time now and would never claim to be an "expert" by any means...especially in infectious disease.  Anyway, I am sure Billy would agree that a lot of things the "experts" are doing is taking information that wasn't obtained via the scientific method and extrapolate out its meaning in a scientific manner.  Thus, it opens the door for misinterpretation and dare I say debate amongst the politicians and us commoners. 

You previously ask 

 

15 hours ago, dman115 said:

 And some of the evidence holds true in that in the beginning of the lock downs, cashiers and other employees that work at grocery stores and the big box stores didn't start out wearing masks, thus they would have been getting infected at a very high rate, yet that didn't happen 

I attached an artcile that headlined COVID-19 has killed 100 grocery store workers..

If you do a simple search, you will find similar articles in every region.  Grocery clerks have been hit disproprotionally higher than most other professions

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1 hour ago, irani said:

You previously ask 

 

I attached an artcile that headlined COVID-19 has killed 100 grocery store workers..

If you do a simple search, you will find similar articles in every region.  Grocery clerks have been hit disproprotionally higher than most other professions

I'm pro-mask, but one could probably argue you don't know if the workers were getting it from each other (due to their prolonged exposure) or from customers, and I'm not sure if we know whether or not their rate of infection is much if any higher than the general population.

To one of dman's comments, I don't think there is a lot of evidence of grocery store shoppers for example getting it much.   I think this study of multiple restaurant patrons in China sitting at a different table from an infected and presymptomatic person for less than an hour and still getting infected is the best example I've seen of person to person transmission without symptoms without "prolonged" exposure - https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

So, sure it's probably low risk to go to Home Depot or the grocery store without a mask if you're only in there for 30 minutes or less, but that doesn't mean there's no risk.   

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15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I'm pro-mask, but one could probably argue you don't know if the workers were getting it from each other (due to their prolonged exposure) or from customers, and I'm not sure if we know whether or not their rate of infection is much if any higher than the general population.

To one of dman's comments, I don't think there is a lot of evidence of grocery store shoppers for example getting it much.   I think this study of multiple restaurant patrons in China sitting at a different table from an infected and presymptomatic person for less than an hour and still getting infected is the best example I've seen of person to person transmission without symptoms without "prolonged" exposure - https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

So, sure it's probably low risk to go to Home Depot or the grocery store without a mask if you're only in there for 30 minutes or less, but that doesn't mean there's no risk.   

Also pro mask where needed - not sure that grocery store workers are necessarily close to each other that much. Stockers are usually off by themselves (relative to other workers) and checkers have their own aisles. But both sets end up coming close to patrons so they are likely to interact with someone infectious. This might depend on the size of the store. I do my main shopping at Wegmans but supplement at Wawas (east coast convenience store). I could see the workers closer to each other at Wawa than at Wegmans. Not sure here (I don't think anyone is)

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15 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Also pro mask where needed - not sure that grocery store workers are necessarily close to each other that much. Stockers are usually off by themselves (relative to other workers) and checkers have their own aisles. But both sets end up coming close to patrons so they are likely to interact with someone infectious. This might depend on the size of the store. I do my main shopping at Wegmans but supplement at Wawas (east coast convenience store). I could see the workers closer to each other at Wawa than at Wegmans. Not sure here (I don't think anyone is)

Agree, although I guess I was also implying that it seems possible to catch it even if distanced if there is prolonged (particularly indoor) exposure - as evidenced by this study in South Korea where the majority of one side of an office became infected - https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1274_article

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On 7/3/2020 at 10:11 AM, Plasmodium said:

I'd ask you to show statistics, but you can't.

Neither can you sir. I was being sarcastic with my 99% sort of. No ones numbers are accurate and they are always changing. I don't trust anyone especially the scientists and the politicians and that includes yes Mr Trump. That is if you thought I supported him. I don't support anyone in leadership because I think all of them are raiding the US treasury over this fake response to a minor virus no worse than a bad flu season. They are about to cut wrestling programs and any other sports they don't like from little league all the way to the professional level. Something is seriously wrong about this pandemic and I think all of the worlds elite are involved. Why? Because there is no way 150 countries would have shut down like that without hardly any debate. That takes the absolute highest power to do that. And it is only about a few dozen families doing this from what I have heard. It will never be reported. Never!    

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50 minutes ago, PRyan2012 said:

Neither can you sir. I was being sarcastic with my 99% sort of. No ones numbers are accurate and they are always changing. I don't trust anyone especially the scientists and the politicians and that includes yes Mr Trump. That is if you thought I supported him. I don't support anyone in leadership because I think all of them are raiding the US treasury over this fake response to a minor virus no worse than a bad flu season. They are about to cut wrestling programs and any other sports they don't like from little league all the way to the professional level. Something is seriously wrong about this pandemic and I think all of the worlds elite are involved. Why? Because there is no way 150 countries would have shut down like that without hardly any debate. That takes the absolute highest power to do that. And it is only about a few dozen families doing this from what I have heard. It will never be reported. Never!    

I can agree with a lot of what you are saying - our political leadership is so bad, it is providing scientific leadership as well.  

Nevertheless, I can offer plenty of statistics.   >3 million.  >130,000.  100% ICU utilization.

This is far worse than flu.  Unimaginable if it reached > 50,000,000 infections like the flu.

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6 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

I can agree with a lot of what you are saying - our political leadership is so bad, it is providing scientific leadership as well.  

Nevertheless, I can offer plenty of statistics.   >3 million.  >130,000.  100% ICU utilization.

This is far worse than flu.  Unimaginable if it reached > 50,000,000 infections like the flu.

3 million confirmed cases... mortality rate at that is .04%...

now, how many infections that are not confirmed because they didn't just run to the hospital at the first sniffle or were totally asymptomatic?

safe to say double would be laughably low... 10X would be reasonable, yes?

see the overall picture?

and 100% ICU utilization is hyperbole at its finest...

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how about you guys throw some statistics out there about how many people have lost their jobs?

how many businesses closed?

how many more are gonna lose their jobs in the next couple of months?

all for what?

a fukn boogie bug?

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

I can agree with a lot of what you are saying - our political leadership is so bad, it is providing scientific leadership as well.  

Nevertheless, I can offer plenty of statistics.   >3 million.  >130,000.  100% ICU utilization.

This is far worse than flu.  Unimaginable if it reached > 50,000,000 infections like the flu.

I think the numbers are way over inflated because the elites for whatever reason need this to be bad to do whatever it is they want to do with the world's wealth. I especially do not trust the CDC who have high paid scientists on the payroll and are sub servants to the politicians and these hidden elite families. This is all about money and control. I was a Trump supporter but now think he is in on it-he has to be! I think the race riots and Covid-19 are both a manufactured crisis. But you can think this is a bad disease but I simply do not. Not going to play statistics with you only because I think they are all manipulated numbers. And the topic of this thread is 2021 Olympics. I bet we don't have them at all or a very abbreviated version unless the elites get all their power and money back. I hope Trump is on our side but that maybe wishful thinking. And also one more thing it sucks not to able to believe anyone, anywhere or anytime because you don't know who to trust. It is very sad! 

Edited by PRyan2012

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On 7/4/2020 at 4:44 PM, Shiraz123 said:

People think Covid 19 is to get rid of Trump? Omg lol. 

And why would anyone think that? Let me see here we had the Russia scandal designed to impeach Trump or make him resign. Then you had the hooker scandal to make him resign. Then you had supreme court sex scandal. Then impeachment itself. Then a double hit job with Covid/race riots. Any other made up scandals that I missed? I think they were all fake. Covid may not be fake but the response to a disease that kills .4% like that is what is fake. But I will say I would not be surprised if Trump is in on all of it as a bad actor to divide us to make money and raid the US treasury. All I know is something is not right with the worlds elite/leaders. They appear to have a plan for you and me! O and most of them hate wrestling!  

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20 minutes ago, PRyan2012 said:

And why would anyone think that? Let me see here we had the Russia scandal designed to impeach Trump or make him resign. Then you had the hooker scandal to make him resign. Then you had supreme court sex scandal. Then impeachment itself. Then a double hit job with Covid/race riots. Any other made up scandals that I missed? I think they were all fake. Covid may not be fake but the response to a disease that kills .4% like that is what is fake. But I will say I would not be surprised if Trump is in on all of it as a bad actor to divide us to make money and raid the US treasury. All I know is something is not right with the worlds elite/leaders. They appear to have a plan for you and me! O and most of them hate wrestling!  

Maybe people want to get rid of Trump because we knew before the election he couldn't handle the job. Especially, if there was a crisis. Now he's proven that to be more correct than we could ever have known.

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46 minutes ago, PRyan2012 said:

I think the numbers are way over inflated because the elites for whatever reason need this to be bad to do whatever it is they want to do with the world's wealth. I especially do not trust the CDC who have high paid scientists on the payroll and are sub servants to the politicians and these hidden elite families. This is all about money and control. I was a Trump supporter but now think he is in on it-he has to be! I think the race riots and Covid-19 are both a manufactured crisis. But you can think this is a bad disease but I simply do not. Not going to play statistics with you only because I think they are all manipulated numbers. And the topic of this thread is 2021 Olympics. I bet we don't have them at all or a very abbreviated version unless the elites get all their power and money back. I hope Trump is on our side but that maybe wishful thinking. And also one more thing it sucks not to able to believe anyone, anywhere or anytime because you don't know who to trust. It is very sad! 

How do I know that you are not part of the elite? Can I believe you? How do I know whether I am part of the elite? Can I believe myself? 

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12 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

How do I know that you are not part of the elite? Can I believe you? How do I know whether I am part of the elite? Can I believe myself? 

is the actual mortality rate of the boogie bug worth crippling this countries working class?

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8 hours ago, LJB said:

is the actual mortality rate of the boogie bug worth crippling this countries working class?

Most estimates have “boogie bug” deaths at easily over 2x that of the flu.  And that’s of course with those numbers not yet finished, and with all the lockdown measures that were implemented.  So maybe the current death total isn’t worth the economic hit, but if there were no lockdown measures then the deaths would have been much higher which probably would have crippled the economy anyway...

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9 hours ago, PRyan2012 said:

And why would anyone think that? Let me see here we had the Russia scandal designed to impeach Trump or make him resign. Then you had the hooker scandal to make him resign. Then you had supreme court sex scandal. Then impeachment itself. Then a double hit job with Covid/race riots. Any other made up scandals that I missed? I think they were all fake. Covid may not be fake but the response to a disease that kills .4% like that is what is fake. But I will say I would not be surprised if Trump is in on all of it as a bad actor to divide us to make money and raid the US treasury. All I know is something is not right with the worlds elite/leaders. They appear to have a plan for you and me! O and most of them hate wrestling!  

What you do not realise is that many countries have had a more severe lockdown in response to the virus than America and it has also devastated their economies. Were all of these countries attempting to get rid of their government or is that just the case for the USA and Trump? Is it just a global thing to get rid of a lot of the current world leaders? If so, why?  It's not in the "elites" interest for a large portion of their businesses to be closed. 

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It's unfortunate that some people have been broken by this virus. Not from catching it and getting sick, but from being unable to process the new information the virus is creating and for being unable to make adjustments to their lives as a result. Many people, not just people on this board, have suffered complete brain meltdown. 

I fully understand how emotionally jarring this information is and how disruptive even small changes to ones life can be, so I remind myself constantly to be more patient and compassionate. The one thing I wish people would fully appreciate and take to heart is that there is no returning to normal, no recovery of the economy, sports, etc, until the virus is defeating, and doing that requires, at the bare minimum, inconveniences and alterations to your routines that you don't want to do, and more likely a much greater sacrifice. The sooner everyone digests that concept the sooner we all get on board the same team and can effectively fight the virus. Until then, the disruption and pain will continue. 

Thats my Thursday morning covid thoughts. Hopefully we figure out how to get more wrestling back in some form or another and we can all enjoy it and take a break from our constant reminders that we're living in a brutal pandemic. Best wishes to all my friends on this dumb message board!

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52 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

What you do not realise is that many countries have had a more severe lockdown in response to the virus than America and it has also devastated their economies. Were all of these countries attempting to get rid of their government or is that just the case for the USA and Trump? Is it just a global thing to get rid of a lot of the current world leaders? If so, why?  It's not in the "elites" interest for a large portion of their businesses to be closed. 

If we could be a fly on a wall at the annual Bildeburg conference I think you would realize that most other countries do not matter outside of northern Europe and North America unless they are being fleeced by the super elite few dozen families. Then they matter. Like the Ukraine oil scandal. They have been rocked and I think they are pissed. You can not have america first mentality because that takes major money out of their pockets. That is all this is about. And you and I are paying the price for it. The misinformation out there is extreme and it is causing all of us to fight/argue with each other. That is what they want in my opinion. 

Edited by PRyan2012

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54 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

It's unfortunate that some people have been broken by this virus. Not from catching it and getting sick, but from being unable to process the new information the virus is creating and for being unable to make adjustments to their lives as a result. Many people, not just people on this board, have suffered complete brain meltdown. 

I fully understand how emotionally jarring this information is and how disruptive even small changes to ones life can be, so I remind myself constantly to be more patient and compassionate. The one thing I wish people would fully appreciate and take to heart is that there is no returning to normal, no recovery of the economy, sports, etc, until the virus is defeating, and doing that requires, at the bare minimum, inconveniences and alterations to your routines that you don't want to do, and more likely a much greater sacrifice. The sooner everyone digests that concept the sooner we all get on board the same team and can effectively fight the virus. Until then, the disruption and pain will continue. 

Thats my Thursday morning covid thoughts. Hopefully we figure out how to get more wrestling back in some form or another and we can all enjoy it and take a break from our constant reminders that we're living in a brutal pandemic. Best wishes to all my friends on this dumb message board!

I am on board with the spirit of this post, but have questions about some of the content.  I wonder what you mean by "until the virus is defeated"?  Until it is no longer here?  Until we have a vaccine?  Until the mortality rate is lower than 0.4?  And there is one thing I very much disagree with it, and quite frankly Jaroslav you almost completely lost me in your post by saying "at bare minimum, inconveniences and alterations...".  I am sorry but losing businesses, mental health issues, substance abuse, etc. are not "inconveniences" or "alterations" from "normal"...these are extremely life altering things for people.

I do have a questions I have asked on these boards several times and no one seems to be able to answer, or comment on really...how many deaths (if counted correctly) would the flu produce if there wasn't a vaccine?  Billy may know this.  I googled and couldn't find anything that I could make sense of.

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1 minute ago, dman115 said:

And there is one thing I very much disagree with it, and quite frankly Jaroslav you almost completely lost me in your post by saying "at bare minimum, inconveniences and alterations...".  I am sorry but losing businesses, mental health issues, substance abuse, etc. are not "inconveniences" or "alterations" from "normal"...these are extremely life altering things for people.

yes that is why I said "at a bare minimum."  of course I agree and recognize that things far worse than the least bad things are happening. the stakes are extremely high, which is one of the main points of my post.

the virus is presenting a risk that people are not comfortable with. that is causing the destruction of businesses, etc. only when people no longer fear the virus will things return to "normal." 

I expect we will need an effective treatment or vaccine before that will happen. 

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9 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I am on board with the spirit of this post, but have questions about some of the content.  I wonder what you mean by "until the virus is defeated"?  Until it is no longer here?  Until we have a vaccine?  Until the mortality rate is lower than 0.4?  And there is one thing I very much disagree with it, and quite frankly Jaroslav you almost completely lost me in your post by saying "at bare minimum, inconveniences and alterations...".  I am sorry but losing businesses, mental health issues, substance abuse, etc. are not "inconveniences" or "alterations" from "normal"...these are extremely life altering things for people.

I do have a questions I have asked on these boards several times and no one seems to be able to answer, or comment on really...how many deaths (if counted correctly) would the flu produce if there wasn't a vaccine?  Billy may know this.  I googled and couldn't find anything that I could make sense of.

Here is some info https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

<<<

Flu vaccine prevents millions of illnesses and flu-related doctor’s visits each year. For example, during 2017-2018, flu vaccination prevented an estimated 6.2 million influenza illnesses, 3.2 million influenza-associated medical visits, 91,000 influenza-associated hospitalizations, and 5,700 influenza-associated deaths.

>>>

Here are some flu stats

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

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9 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I am on board with the spirit of this post, but have questions about some of the content.  I wonder what you mean by "until the virus is defeated"?  Until it is no longer here?  Until we have a vaccine?  Until the mortality rate is lower than 0.4?  And there is one thing I very much disagree with it, and quite frankly Jaroslav you almost completely lost me in your post by saying "at bare minimum, inconveniences and alterations...".  I am sorry but losing businesses, mental health issues, substance abuse, etc. are not "inconveniences" or "alterations" from "normal"...these are extremely life altering things for people.

I do have a questions I have asked on these boards several times and no one seems to be able to answer, or comment on really...how many deaths (if counted correctly) would the flu produce if there wasn't a vaccine?  Billy may know this.  I googled and couldn't find anything that I could make sense of.

Here is some info https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

<<<

Flu vaccine prevents millions of illnesses and flu-related doctor’s visits each year. For example, during 2017-2018, flu vaccination prevented an estimated 6.2 million influenza illnesses, 3.2 million influenza-associated medical visits, 91,000 influenza-associated hospitalizations, and 5,700 influenza-associated deaths.

>>>

Here are some flu stats

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

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19 hours ago, dman115 said:

I wonder how those people are getting infected...i.e., air born through regular conversation or by touching contaminated things?

I think both studies I posted the conclusion was that it was mostly through the air (for the people sitting at other tables in the restaurant, and the fact that it was primarily one side of the office building that got infected).

I thought most of the newer information seems to say touching contaminated things is not as much of a risk as was initially thought.  Although there was at least one example I've seen where scientist concluded it was spread by a salt shaker - https://www.npr.org/2020/04/21/840522664/germany-says-it-has-identified-the-first-coronavirus-transmission-in-the-country

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