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matts1w

Flo's Wrestling vs. Grappling Debate

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I agree the hybrid matches are kind of fun to watch, but so far have been skewed to oine sport or the other.  What about a format where "all" the rules are allowed- especially the "ultimate" paths to victory.  Obviously in wrestling the ultimate goal is a pin.  In grappling it is some sort of submission.  Why not leave those in?  Want to beat a wrestler? Learn how to sprawl and defend a takedown, then work for your submissions while staying off your back.  Want to beat a grappler?  Learn how to defend their submissions while still doing your thing.  Of course the wrestler could still choke the grappler and the grappler could still pin the wrestler.

 

Maybe create a first one to three 'wins" format while scoring takedowns in case no one get there in the allotted time.    

Edited by matts1w

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14 hours ago, matts1w said:

I agree the hybrid matches are kind of fun to watch, but so far have been skewed to oine sport or the other.  What about a format where "all" the rules are allowed- especially the "ultimate" paths to victory.  Obviously in wrestling the ultimate goal is a pin.  In grappling it is some sort of submission.  Why not leave those in?  Want to beat a wrestler? Learn how to sprawl and defend a takedown, then work for your submissions while staying off your back.  Want to beat a grappler?  Learn how to defend their submissions while still doing your thing.  Of course the wrestler could still choke the grappler and the grappler could still pin the wrestler.

 

Maybe create a first one to three 'wins" format while scoring takedowns in case no one get there in the allotted time.    

Makes no sense for a grappler to lose by pin. It takes away one of their main positions. Never been a fan of hybrid matches

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they are two different sports contested by two very different types of people...

trying to merge them into one contest where both competitors have equal footing is always going to be a losing battle...

plus, we don't really have to... we have MMA... and it has proven beyond doubt that wrestling is the most effective martial art...

 

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

they are two different sports contested by two very different types of people...

trying to merge them into one contest where both competitors have equal footing is always going to be a losing battle...

plus, we don't really have to... we have MMA... and it has proven beyond doubt that wrestling is the most effective martial art...

 

I don't think it's proven it's the most effective but more so it's the best base/foundation you can have.  IMO there is more upside to being a wrestler and then learning bjj.  A world class wrestler wouldn't win a fight against a world class bjj guy if the wrestler didn't know the submissions and how to defend them.  

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3 minutes ago, portajohn said:

I don't think it's proven it's the most effective but more so it's the best base/foundation you can have.  IMO there is more upside to being a wrestler and then learning bjj.  A world class wrestler wouldn't win a fight against a world class bjj guy if the wrestler didn't know the submissions and how to defend them.  

a fight or a match?

the two are very different...

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Yep and within the context of fighting, is it about “defending yourself” or “brutalizing a person”? Wrestling I think develops such strong positional awareness and knowledge of movement and body kinetics. I would guess that wrestlers would generally be very good at getting out of dangerous situations, neutralize an attacker and not getting mauled in just about any fight. That’s much different, and maybe a more useful skill, than being able to knock someone out with a punch or putting someone in an ankle lock.

Edited by pamela

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29 minutes ago, LJB said:

a fight or a match?

the two are very different...

In a fight.  If we were to arrange a fight between the adcc reigning champ vs an olympic champ or NCAA champ and the wrestler didn't know any submissions or submission defense I'd be very comfortable placing a bet on the bjj guy.  But, as has been proven if we were to take that same wrestler and teach him bjj/submission grappling for a year then threw them into the octagon I'd be very comfortable placing my money on the wrestler.  I think wrestling is hands down the best foundation you can have in combat sports.  It's proven it has the most upside. 

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5 minutes ago, portajohn said:

In a fight.  If we were to arrange a fight between the adcc reigning champ vs an olympic champ or NCAA champ and the wrestler didn't know any submissions or submission defense I'd be very comfortable placing a bet on the bjj guy.  But, as has been proven if we were to take that same wrestler and teach him bjj/submission grappling for a year then threw them into the octagon I'd be very comfortable placing my money on the wrestler.  I think wrestling is hands down the best foundation you can have in combat sports.  It's proven it has the most upside. 

Agreed, you can teach a wrestler bjj and submission defense.  It's pretty hard to teach a bjj guy wrestling and the toughness that's inherent in the sport of wrestling.  

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17 minutes ago, portajohn said:

In a fight.  If we were to arrange a fight between the adcc reigning champ vs an olympic champ or NCAA champ and the wrestler didn't know any submissions or submission defense I'd be very comfortable placing a bet on the bjj guy.  But, as has been proven if we were to take that same wrestler and teach him bjj/submission grappling for a year then threw them into the octagon I'd be very comfortable placing my money on the wrestler.  I think wrestling is hands down the best foundation you can have in combat sports.  It's proven it has the most upside. 

i am not sure i completely agree... clearly it could go that way, but, throw in a punch to the face and who knows how that bjj is going to react... we see it all the time in MMA... wrestlers are just tougher and that counts...

go NHB and it slides even more to the wrestlers favor...

plus, let's not even mention the rampant PED use in the high levels of the bjj community... take them off that gear and in the cage and see how they fare...

of course there will be outliers on both sides of the equation, but, wrestling just breeds a different type of person... and these hybrid matches have to slide way too much in the favor of bjj to make it even slightly competitive... and then you get a jackass like gordon ryan presenting himself to nikal like he was looking to get mated... literally his only option to get that match anywhere he could be successful... how does that work out in a fight?

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18 minutes ago, LJB said:

and then you get a jackass like gordon ryan presenting himself to nikal like he was looking to get mated... literally his only option to get that match anywhere he could be successful... how does that work out in a fight?

I'm not on this board to start arguing against wrestlers.  I am one.  Facts are facts.  I agree with everything you say but if they each just had one discipline to work with I'm going with the guy that knows how to choke you out or put you in a submission.  If I'm not mistaken Gordon Ryan wasn't allowed to pull guard nor was he allowed to use leg locks which is his specialty.  Yes wrestlers are tougher, they have more grit, etc.  But if they fought a bjj guy with just wrestling what are they going to do?  Especially when they get put into guard.  We even saw it in the early UFC's when Royce Gracie fought Dan Sevren.  I don't know how this is even an argument.  Every wrestling buddy I know would say the same thing.  And I've said a few times already wrestling has more upside in combat sports.  It just comes down to wrestlers learning submissions

 

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Just now, portajohn said:

I'm not on this board to start arguing against wrestlers.  I am one.  Facts are facts.  I agree with everything you say but if they each just had one discipline to work with I'm going with the guy that knows how to choke you out or put you in a submission.  If I'm not mistaken Gordon Ryan wasn't allowed to pull guard nor was he allowed to use leg locks which is his specialty.  Yes wrestlers are tougher, they have more grit, etc.  But if they fought a bjj guy with just wrestling what are they going to do?  Especially when they get put into guard.  We even saw it in the early UFC's when Royce Gracie fought Dan Sevren.  I don't know how this is even an argument.  Every wrestling buddy I know would say the same thing.  And I've said a few times already wrestling has more upside in combat sports.  It just comes down to wrestlers learning submissions

we aren't arguing...

it is silly to make the stipulation that they can only use wrestling or only use bjj in a fight... 

that isn't a fight...

that is a match... a sporting competition... and if you are going to allow a bjj guy to pull guard then you have to allow the match to end by pin for the wrestler also... in other words, total silliness... 

and the world is a very different place than in 1993... literally no one knew what bjj was in this country... those early guys didn't and were totally caught by surprise... it took a few years, but, we all understand what can happen now...

all anyone has to do is look at who the champs are in all of MMA... overwhelmingly wrestlers...

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24 minutes ago, LJB said:

and the world is a very different place than in 1993... literally no one knew what bjj was in this country... those early guys didn't and were totally caught by surprise... it took a few years, but, we all understand what can happen now...

But that's my point.  If you took a bjj guy and had him fight a wrestler and the wrestler didnt know any bjj then he'd get caught in a submission.  And yes the champs in the UFC are overwhelmingly wrestlers because they learned other disciplines like bjj, boxing, kick boxing, and have IMO the best foundation which is wrestling.  

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In a match, yes...

in a fight, maybe...

strikes change everything...

when you say fight I think a fight and not some “match” that BJJ guys want to call a “fight” because it makes them feel tougher...

add in one head butt... see what happens...

wrestling is hands down the most effective martial art... it can no longer be denied... 

there are no death touches any more...

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

of course there will be outliers on both sides of the equation, but, wrestling just breeds a different type of person... and these hybrid matches have to slide way too much in the favor of bjj to make it even slightly competitive... and then you get a jackass like gordon ryan presenting himself to nikal like he was looking to get mated... literally his only option to get that match anywhere he could be successful... how does that work out in a fight?

Bo wasn't making too much of an attempt to take Gordon down because he wanted nothing to do with him on the ground.  As @portajohn stated, Gordon couldn't pull guard or use leglocks on Bo.  

In a fight or mma match, I'm taking Bo over Gordon all day.  Gordon can't take Bo down, and Bo's length and superior striking get him the KO.

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8 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Bo wasn't making too much of an attempt to take Gordon down because he wanted nothing to do with him on the ground.  As @portajohn stated, Gordon couldn't pull guard or use leglocks on Bo.  

In a fight or mma match, I'm taking Bo over Gordon all day.  Gordon can't take Bo down, and Bo's length and superior striking get him the KO.

The jackass Ryan was pinned before bo tapped...

it’s silly...

I would love to see Ryan get off the gear and get in the cage and then let’s see how billybadass he is, but, he isn’t gonna do that... 

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Lots of good discussion here with solid points being made. Some of you may want to go to You Tube and pull up the name Curran Jacobs. He was captain of the Michigan State team in 2012 and narrowly missed being an All-American that year. For five years, he has trained in catch-as-catch-can wrestling, the style that was popular in the early 1900s by the real pros,  and which allows chokes, submissions  and pins. Curran is undefeated in catch and has won 4 major catch events, including two Frank Gotch tournaments in Humboldt, Iowa, the first one by pinning a BJJ standout who came from California with the express purpose of beating Curran and showing BJJ is superior to catch. In 2018, weighing about 195, Curran defeated 3 much larger and very tough competitors in the United World Catch Tournament. He has learned how to avoid submissions and is probably the top catch wrestler in America today, though Josh Barnett is certainly in the same category. Curran has trained with both Josh and Dan Severn. He considers Randy Couture his mentor and is also 5-0 in MMA.

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