David Taylor vs. Logan Stieber

[VakAttack 2,512]

2 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

Here we go again...

Winning a world title is NOT the epitome of success in our sport.  Winning an Olympic gold medal is the epitome of success in wrestling.  

Logan missed making the Olympic Team in 2016.  Then he entered a "consolation" world championships that same year where he won the 61 kg category. That is nowhere near the same as David's 2018 world championship which was won at an Olympic weight in a year where every country could send one rep per weight.  

Also, if we are looking at college careers, yes, Logan won four titles to David's two.  But David only lost 3 matches, to Bubba Jenkins and Kyle Dake twice, whereas Logan lost to Jarrod Patterson, Jason Lara, Frank Perrelli, Chris Dardanes, Jordan Oliver, and Zain Retherford.  If we are going purely on accomplishments, then Logan was superior collegiate wrestler.  But if we are going off of the eyeball test, I would argue that David was superior as he faced better competition and was more dominant.  

I don't think the losses to Patterson, Lara, or Perrelli are on Stieber's official record, they were during his redshirt year.  Otherwise we're adding two more losses to Taylor's tally, one more to Jenkins and a loss to Cyler Sanderson.

I completely disagree with the idea that Taylor faced superior competition.  I think it's more likely to favor Stieber in that conversation (Oliver, Zain, Ramos, Mitchell Port, Kendric Maple, Devin Carter vs. Dake (never beat), Jenkins [got decked], St. John, Caldwell), but also Stieber notably BEAT those guys.  The two best guys Taylor faced, he never beat.  Taylor was more dominant in terms of bonus points, though.

[Sstern 91]

3 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I don't think the losses to Patterson, Lara, or Perrelli are on Stieber's official record, they were during his redshirt year.  Otherwise we're adding two more losses to Taylor's tally, one more to Jenkins and a loss to Cyler Sanderson.

I completely disagree with the idea that Taylor faced superior competition.  I think it's more likely to favor Stieber in that conversation (Oliver, Zain, Ramos, Mitchell Port, Kendric Maple, Devin Carter vs. Dake (never beat), Jenkins [got decked], St. John, Caldwell), but also Stieber notably BEAT those guys.  The two best guys Taylor faced, he never beat.  Taylor was more dominant in terms of bonus points, though.

I think this is an accurate and fair assessment.  I also think if at the same weight in college, Stieber wins.  Excellent defense and could finish shots against anyone.  Plus, as someone posted earlier, mentally tough.  Similar style to how Dake and Cox beat Taylor.

But as we know, in fantasy matchups, Taylor is the man.

[Billyhoyle 1,946]

I think the answer is Taylor, without question.  He won a world championship and beat the defending olympic champion in the process.  He's also favored to make the upcoming olympic team.  Yes, Stieber is a world champion, but as others have said nobody who qualified for the olympics was allowed to compete at the weight.  So it was a seriously emptied out bracket and not comparable to Taylor's title.  

[madcat11 395]

Taylor in freestyle, Stieber in folk.  Splitting hairs either way.

[VakAttack 2,512]

54 minutes ago, madcat11 said:

Taylor in freestyle, Stieber in folk.  Splitting hairs either way.

I don't think it's splitting hairs in Free at all.  Taylor is pretty clearly better, I think.

[Timo 20]

Stieber Worlds = 1st, 12th, 19th for 2016, 2017, 2018.  In 2016, he had 4 wins to take the championship.  All 4 guys would eventually be world medalists - 1 gold, 1 silver and 4 bronzes between them.  So even though this was a non olympic weight in an olympic year, it was a very tough tournament and I wouldn't diminish the gold medal in any way.  He earned that thing.  Stieber had 2 losses in the 2017 worlds and they were both to past or future gold medalists.  Stieber was one loss and out in 2018 and it was to the eventual bronze medalist.  So his world championship performances were all competitive with the best in the world.

Taylor Worlds = 1st in 2018.  Taylor had 5 wins and 1 was against a past gold medalist and one was against the 2018 silver medalist.  Taylor took longer to make it to the world championships because he was 1-11 against Burroughs, Dake and Cox.  It took the establishing of new weight classes at 79 and 92 kg to spread these guys out and open up a spot for Taylor.  Stieber did not have any USA gold medalists to fight through to make it to the first team.

Stieber USA Open National Championships = 3rd,6th,4th,3rd,4th,2nd,3rd for 2009,10,13,14,15,16,18.  Stieber wrestled his first US Open in 2009 at age 18.  It took him from then till 2016 to make his first appearance at the world championships.  I think that tells you something about how hard it is to make it through the gauntlet of very good wrestlers to make the first team.

Taylor USA Open National Championships = 2nd,2nd,1st,1st,1st,1st for 2013-2018.  Taylor wrestled in the 2012 Olympic Trials at age 21 and it took him till 2018 to make his first appearance at the world championships.  Reinforces the comment on how hard it is to make it to the first team.

Two of the very best all time NCAA wrestlers who both made it to the world team to win gold.  The results say that Taylor made the transition from folkstyle to freestyle a little better than Stieber did.  They both made it through the very difficult process to make the team.  But Taylor's overall freestyle record is better.  I think Stieber was an outstanding control wrestler (could ride anyone) but that isn't valued in freestyle.  Taylor's style is more wide open and scrambling and that has worked a little better.

 

 

 

 

[tec87 349]

19 hours ago, madcat11 said:

Who is Taylor’s best folk style win?  Caldwell?

Bekzhod Abdurakhmonov was Rd12,2nd getting destroyed by Taylor in the finals but has since won 2 world bronzes and finished 5th at the 2016 Olympics after he beat Burroughs. So not the best win based on NCAA results but a damn good international resume. 

[hammerlockthree 1,839]

47 minutes ago, tec87 said:

Bekzhod Abdurakhmonov was Rd12,2nd getting destroyed by Taylor in the finals but has since won 2 world bronzes and finished 5th at the 2016 Olympics after he beat Burroughs. So not the best win based on NCAA results but a damn good international resume. 

never made the finals

[tec87 349]

2 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

never made the finals

You’re right. It was the semis. I don’t know why I was thinking the finals. 

[TheOhioState 406]

3 hours ago, Timo said:

Stieber Worlds = 1st, 12th, 19th for 2016, 2017, 2018.  In 2016, he had 4 wins to take the championship.  All 4 guys would eventually be world medalists - 1 gold, 1 silver and 4 bronzes between them.  So even though this was a non olympic weight in an olympic year, it was a very tough tournament and I wouldn't diminish the gold medal in any way.  He earned that thing.  Stieber had 2 losses in the 2017 worlds and they were both to past or future gold medalists.  Stieber was one loss and out in 2018 and it was to the eventual bronze medalist.  So his world championship performances were all competitive with the best in the world.

Taylor Worlds = 1st in 2018.  Taylor had 5 wins and 1 was against a past gold medalist and one was against the 2018 silver medalist.  Taylor took longer to make it to the world championships because he was 1-11 against Burroughs, Dake and Cox.  It took the establishing of new weight classes at 79 and 92 kg to spread these guys out and open up a spot for Taylor.  Stieber did not have any USA gold medalists to fight through to make it to the first team.

Stieber USA Open National Championships = 3rd,6th,4th,3rd,4th,2nd,3rd for 2009,10,13,14,15,16,18.  Stieber wrestled his first US Open in 2009 at age 18.  It took him from then till 2016 to make his first appearance at the world championships.  I think that tells you something about how hard it is to make it through the gauntlet of very good wrestlers to make the first team.

Taylor USA Open National Championships = 2nd,2nd,1st,1st,1st,1st for 2013-2018.  Taylor wrestled in the 2012 Olympic Trials at age 21 and it took him till 2018 to make his first appearance at the world championships.  Reinforces the comment on how hard it is to make it to the first team.

Two of the very best all time NCAA wrestlers who both made it to the world team to win gold.  The results say that Taylor made the transition from folkstyle to freestyle a little better than Stieber did.  They both made it through the very difficult process to make the team.  But Taylor's overall freestyle record is better.  I think Stieber was an outstanding control wrestler (could ride anyone) but that isn't valued in freestyle.  Taylor's style is more wide open and scrambling and that has worked a little better.

Excellent report.

 

 

 

 

[Ogalthorpe Haywood 302]

16 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

He won a world title so I think that qualifies as very successful.  A agree that Taylor is definitely more dynamic in his attacks.  

Their world titles weren’t the same imo. One was an Olympic weight, one was a non-Olympic weight during an Olympic year. As far as world titles go that’s kinda low on the  totem pole. Still impressive, just not on Taylor’s world gold level. 

[balanceseeker 80]

7 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Their world titles weren’t the same imo. One was an Olympic weight, one was a non-Olympic weight during an Olympic year. As far as world titles go that’s kinda low on the  totem pole. Still impressive, just not on Taylor’s world gold level. 

I already acknowledged in a prior post that Taylor had a superior freestyle career and was responding to the statement that Logan Stieber "wasn't very successful at the senior level".  

Edited July 10 by balanceseeker

[hammerlockthree 1,839]

7 minutes ago, balanceseeker said:

I already acknowledged in a prior post that Taylor had a superior freestyle career and was responding to the statement that Logan Stieber "wasn't very successful at the senior level".  

Semantics

[headshuck 2,138]

These are two great wrestlers who are contemporaries of one another. Logan had a more successful collegiate career and was a bonus point monster. They've had similar levels of success thusfar on the world stage, though Taylor is obviously still going. Yet, if you asked most wrestling fans who was better, I think they would say Taylor. Why? Am I wrong?
 
Is it due to the association with Penn State and their team championships? Is it because of their one high school match up kind of "cementing" a pecking order?
 
Maybe I'm just flat wrong, but I just found myself thinking about the two and automatically putting Taylor ahead, and then I started questioning myself.
 
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
 

It appears you purposely created a blurry window of time. Taylor is still competing so he’s earning everyone’s respect. Steiber had more success in D1 wrestling and arguably early post-D1. But the window is vague and could be further complicated if one of them goes on to find a cure to Covid.

[NJDan 537]

8 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Their world titles weren’t the same imo. One was an Olympic weight, one was a non-Olympic weight during an Olympic year. As far as world titles go that’s kinda low on the  totem pole. Still impressive, just not on Taylor’s world gold level. 

Aren't Taylor's world to titles also in non-Olympic weights?

[balanceseeker 80]

3 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Aren't Taylor's world to titles also in non-Olympic weights?

Taylor has one world title and it is at 86 kg which is an Olympic weight. 

[NJDan 537]

2 minutes ago, balanceseeker said:

Taylor has one world title and it is at 86 kg which is an Olympic weight. 

Oh, my bad. I also thought he had two (like Dake).

[headshuck 2,138]

Olympic weights change every 4 years. The trick is to figure out how to win some world titles between the changes.

[VakAttack 2,512]

3 hours ago, headshuck said:

It appears you purposely created a blurry window of time. Taylor is still competing so he’s earning everyone’s respect. Steiber had more success in D1 wrestling and arguably early post-D1. But the window is vague and could be further complicated if one of them goes on to find a cure to Covid.

I feel like most fans would say Taylor was a better Folkstyler, too.  That's the root I'm trying to get at.  

[headshuck 2,138]

Ah ok now I get it. You’re asking who was the more skilled wrestler.

 

Sanders was and is one of the most skilled wrestlers with limited hardware due to always being undersized.

 

I’ll bet if you did a poll of Taylor vs Dake, who’s more skilled, Taylor would win that poll as well despite the 0-11.

[ShakaAloha 68]

On 7/8/2020 at 8:28 PM, VakAttack said:

I don't think the losses to Patterson, Lara, or Perrelli are on Stieber's official record, they were during his redshirt year.  Otherwise we're adding two more losses to Taylor's tally, one more to Jenkins and a loss to Cyler Sanderson.

Was he is redshirt when he wrestled these matches?  Or did he take an injury redshirt afterwards?

If he was in redshirt and wrestling unattached when he took the losses to Patterson, Lara, and Perrelli then they should not count.  

If he was not in redshirt when he wrestled these matches and took an injury redshirt after the tournament, then they count on his official record.  

I respect Logan's talents and legacy as a 4x NCAA champ, but the extent that some of you go in order to bolster him is insane.  

[VakAttack 2,512]

2 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

Was he is redshirt when he wrestled these matches?  Or did he take an injury redshirt afterwards?

If he was in redshirt and wrestling unattached when he took the losses to Patterson, Lara, and Perrelli then they should not count.  

If he was not in redshirt when he wrestled these matches and took an injury redshirt after the tournament, then they count on his official record.  

I respect Logan's talents and legacy as a 4x NCAA champ, but the extent that some of you go in order to bolster him is insane.  

Well, that's the interesting thing, I'm pretty sure he was wrestling attached at the time, but got injured at the tournament and lost those three matches.  He didn't wrestle the rest of the season and was considered "in redshirt".  I don't believe it was a medical redshirt, I believe it was his regular redshirt.  Regardless, the NCAA does not count those losses.

[ShakaAloha 68]

49 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Well, that's the interesting thing, I'm pretty sure he was wrestling attached at the time, but got injured at the tournament and lost those three matches.  He didn't wrestle the rest of the season and was considered "in redshirt".  I don't believe it was a medical redshirt, I believe it was his regular redshirt.  Regardless, the NCAA does not count those losses.

Pretty sure that the NCAA counts the wins and losses from Jordan Burroughs' 2009-10 season at Nebraska where he wrestled "attached", got injured in the match against Steve Brown, and was later granted a medical redshirt.  It's the same situation, so those matches Steiber lost should count on his career record.   

If you are wrestling "attached" your wins and losses should count.

[gimpeltf 1,331]

21 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Pretty sure that the NCAA counts the wins and losses from Jordan Burroughs' 2009-10 season at Nebraska where he wrestled "attached", got injured in the match against Steve Brown, and was later granted a medical redshirt.  It's the same situation, so those matches Steiber lost should count on his career record.   

If you are wrestling "attached" your wins and losses should count.

NCAA doesn't count wins and losses at all other than to do the stats for that given years event.