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Bad Look for Wrestling

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1 hour ago, WRfan1 said:

The NCAA tourney is packed, tough to do better than selling out an larger and larger arenas year after year. I enjoy duals a lot, but as someone who it already a wrestling fan, I much prefer tournaments, as I get to see more matches and typically better wrestling.  The idea that a dual meet championship will change the fortunes of the sport feels similar to that of the two-piece singlet - its really hasn't changed much. 

 Regardless, an emphasis on dual meets would have done nothing to change the reasoning given by schools like Stanford. 

A lot of people say what you say but the evidence isn't there.  Why is attendance so poor at Vegas, Midlands, and the Scuffle if the NCAA tournament is proof that people prefer tournaments?  

People like one tournament.  The NCAA tournament.  There is no other tournament that gets anywhere near the attendance but there are many duals that get similar attendance as an NCAA championship session every year. 

I disagree.  An NCAA dual championship would have helped Stanford.

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8 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

A lot of people say what you say but the evidence isn't there.  Why is attendance so poor at Vegas, Midlands, and the Scuffle if the NCAA tournament is proof that people prefer tournaments?  

People like one tournament.  The NCAA tournament.  There is no other tournament that gets anywhere near the attendance but there are many duals that get similar attendance as an NCAA championship session every year. 

I disagree.  An NCAA dual championship would have helped Stanford.

I agree that only one tournament (or at least one series including the qualifiers) are well attended. 

I've said this earlier but will try to say in another way.

Duals are great at home.

At the NCAA duals events, pretty much only those schools drew and largely only schools within a reasonable distance. I'm sure there were a few pure fans but nothing like at the NCAAs. Duals are very parochial (not using the religious definition) and mainly only help those schools. And there aren't that many schools at the duals events. Plus having two national events would likely limit a lot of people to choosing just one in so far as travel and vacation are concerned.

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1 hour ago, Pinnum said:

A lot of people say what you say but the evidence isn't there.  Why is attendance so poor at Vegas, Midlands, and the Scuffle if the NCAA tournament is proof that people prefer tournaments?  

People like one tournament.  The NCAA tournament.  There is no other tournament that gets anywhere near the attendance but there are many duals that get similar attendance as an NCAA championship session every year. 

I disagree.  An NCAA dual championship would have helped Stanford.

I agree about having a dual championship, but there's also the fact that our one big tournament is much smaller by many other metrics, as other sports' one big tournament. In bball, the Wooden Classic, Great Alaska Shootout, Paradise Jam and a whole slew of preseason tournaments are about as sparsely attended, in relative terms, to CKLV, Midlands, etc. in wrestling. Similarly, the stands look pathetic at like, the RodCo Inanimate Carbon Rod Bowl. They just have the luxury of event sponsorship in conjunction with media outlets who are willing to pick up those games, which drive premiums and create bigger payouts.

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In having worked the event for 20 years I did hear something about the D1/2/3 event sizes. Around 30 years ago D1 downsized slightly from 360 to 330 by eliminating the D2/3 qualifiers. Reason given was that no other sports allows 2 bites at the apple. But D2/3 also downsized- fairly significantly as I recall. Perhaps JB or PT can confirm what I am about to say. Reason for D2/3 downsizing was to bring the ratio of qualifiers versus total starters inline with other sports. Why didn't D1 do the same? D1 has almost 50% (33/~70). The reason I was given was that the D1 event was one of the best attended of all sports beyond football/bball and I assume Hockey. Might be a few others but ... So they didn't want to play with it.

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

I agree that only one tournament (or at least one series including the qualifiers) are well attended. 

I've said this earlier but will try to say in another way.

Duals are great at home.

At the NCAA duals events, pretty much only those schools drew and largely only schools within a reasonable distance. I'm sure there were a few pure fans but nothing like at the NCAAs. Duals are very parochial (not using the religious definition) and mainly only help those schools. And there aren't that many schools at the duals events. Plus having two national events would likely limit a lot of people to choosing just one in so far as travel and vacation are concerned.

Did you mean the NWCA dual events?

If so, I agree.  But also think the tract that they have no real significance detracted from them.  They were never a real national championship.  
 

As to your point about home attendance, that is why the NCAA soccer, lax, baseball, and many other Championships are played on campus of the higher seed until the finals.  It helps engage the local fans and gets campuses more into the sport and the program. 

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55 minutes ago, pamela said:

I agree about having a dual championship, but there's also the fact that our one big tournament is much smaller by many other metrics, as other sports' one big tournament. In bball, the Wooden Classic, Great Alaska Shootout, Paradise Jam and a whole slew of preseason tournaments are about as sparsely attended, in relative terms, to CKLV, Midlands, etc. in wrestling. Similarly, the stands look pathetic at like, the RodCo Inanimate Carbon Rod Bowl. They just have the luxury of event sponsorship in conjunction with media outlets who are willing to pick up those games, which drive premiums and create bigger payouts.

Those events sell media rights.  The Great Alaska Shootout is dead because They wouldn’t give ESPN control of the event.  
 

Those events only exist for recruiting.  It is a vacation for players.  And all the fans watching on TV and local tourism bureaus pay for the vacations.  
 

I think you’re trying to draw parallels but there aren’t any.  The Nittany Lion Open doesn’t exist anymore.  There were more athletes entered than fans that attended.  Iowa doesn’t hold a tournament. Neither does Ohio State or Oklahoma State.  

There is a reason the programs with fans and resources don’t bother hosting tournaments.  
 

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On 7/9/2020 at 1:08 PM, JasonBryant said:

Problem is, we've been at the mercy of FB/BB determining which conferences we compete in. West Virginia, for example, has its non-rev/Olympic sports budgets impacted immensely because the FB/BB leadership wanted to be in the Big 12. Those costs aren't due to soccer, for example, rather it's the position the school put the soccer team in. Far-flung conferences have had horrible results for non-rev/Olympic sports. 

 

But for the fact that WVU’s tv deal in the Big East was worth approx $10mil/year and is now approx $50mil/year in the Big 12. Increase travel expenses but exponentially more resources for the entire athletic department, who has been improving facilities rapidly outside of football and bball.

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9 hours ago, WRfan1 said:

The NCAA tourney is packed, tough to do better than selling out an larger and larger arenas year after year. I enjoy duals a lot, but as someone who it already a wrestling fan, I much prefer tournaments, as I get to see more matches and typically better wrestling.  The idea that a dual meet championship will change the fortunes of the sport feels similar to that of the two-piece singlet - its really hasn't changed much. 

 Regardless, an emphasis on dual meets would have done nothing to change the reasoning given by schools like Stanford. 

Excellent points. However, one can only speculate what impact a meaningful dual meet championship could have had on Stanford’s decision.     

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NCAA dual championship,  4 "regional: groupings of 20 teams. hold those tournaments the same weekend as NCAA. Before hand, select the four teams in each regional tournament, and send them to NCAA instead. Hold the event at the AllState arena next to O;Hare Airport. Everyone can get a direct flight to there, No more than a 16 hour drive from Anywhere save the far west. 4 regional hosts would be teams that know they cannot qualify. Use D2, D3, NAIA teams to round the Regionals to 16, all tournaments, 4 meets for everyone.

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On 7/10/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pinnum said:

Why is attendance so poor at Vegas, Midlands, and the Scuffle if the NCAA tournament is proof that people prefer tournaments?  

RE Vegas, Scuffle and Midlands: the poor attendance is (likely) because it is during the high school season; coaches and wrestlers are dealing with training, schedules and tournaments - not to mention the holidays. Traveling to watch these events isn't a priority.

HS folk is over by NCAAs, freeing up some that attend.  That's my excuse.

 

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5 minutes ago, PSUSMC said:

RE Vegas, Scuffle and Midlands: the poor attendance is (likely) because it is during the high school season; coaches and wrestlers are dealing with training, schedules and tournaments - not to mention the holidays. Traveling to watch these events isn't a priority.

HS folk is over by NCAAs, freeing up some that attend.  That's my excuse.

Sure, that might be the symptom but it is pretty telling of the aliment.

Why are only high school wrestling coaches the ones that attend wrestling events?  Why is the sport catering to this group?

High School wrestling coaches are active on twitter.  They know the college wrestlers from watching them at national events competing against their athletes.  But that is a very small market and not one that is going to sustain wrestling.  

When I see duals, I see a lot of older fans (retirees) who are not high school wrestling coaches.   There should be a bigger market for people who aren't coaching high school wrestling to be wrestling fans.  The number of ex-wrestlers out there is significant.  Why do we think only high school wrestling coaches can be fans?  (This is rhetorical; I am not attacking you.)

I actually think we would do better with a dual emphasis for this very reason.  Not only would it be easier for others to engage with college wrestling but it would also make it easier for high school coaches.  Following tournaments is very time intensive.  It is a taxing process.  

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23 hours ago, Pinnum said:

Sure, that might be the symptom but it is pretty telling of the aliment.

Why are only high school wrestling coaches the ones that attend wrestling events?  Why is the sport catering to this group?

High School wrestling coaches are active on twitter.  They know the college wrestlers from watching them at national events competing against their athletes.  But that is a very small market and not one that is going to sustain wrestling.  

When I see duals, I see a lot of older fans (retirees) who are not high school wrestling coaches.   There should be a bigger market for people who aren't coaching high school wrestling to be wrestling fans.  The number of ex-wrestlers out there is significant.  Why do we think only high school wrestling coaches can be fans?  (This is rhetorical; I am not attacking you.)

I actually think we would do better with a dual emphasis for this very reason.  Not only would it be easier for others to engage with college wrestling but it would also make it easier for high school coaches.  Following tournaments is very time intensive.  It is a taxing process.  

I don't disagree with you on this and I like duals.  The usual 6 hours (dual tourney) vs 10-14 hours (individual tourney) in a gym, during winter - where there typically aren't many places to go to break up the monotony (as it's winter and the weather generally sucks - because it's winter - and I'm in a part of CA with good weather).

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