Jump to content
CoachWrestling

Over/under 9.5 D1 wrestling teams cut

Recommended Posts

On 7/9/2020 at 10:39 AM, Billyhoyle said:

The bottom line is that university ADs have every reason to cut wrestling and every other non revenue sport above the minimum required by the NCAA.  More than title IX, the reason these programs are being cut is the huge increases in tuition where 9.9 scholarships now cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.  It’s critical that the alumni at every D1 team left organize and start fundraising to build external trusts/endowments not controlled by the university but that provide guaranteed funding every year to the uni for the sport. 
 

The fact that Stanford chose to cut wrestling before many other non revenue sports reflects a failure among their alumni to do this. The key is to demonstrate that wrestling has value to the university and should not be the sport to get axed. We need to stop being reactive to these situations and start taking proactive measures to maintain what we have left.

I strongly support your first paragraph. It takes a lot to pull this off but the reality is that you need 1,000 donating $1,000 to endow a program according to ODU. Now multiply across 72 schools.

$72,000,000

That is to stay afloat and keep the status quo at the D1 level. It can be done with a strong investment manager with strong ties to wrestling+startup residuals, but would require VC that would essentially be a donation unless there is a billion dollar idea and the recipient doesn’t mind giving up $72mm. Maybe Adam Tirrapelle has the hookup?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

These schools have had to halt all hiring and cut benefits for staff and faculty. Now with the decreased revenue from football/basketball, what are they supposed to do to cut spending in the athletic department? It's impossible not to cut something-they can't just print money. We need to try to put wrestling programs in a position where universities see value in keeping them. And for the ones like Stanford where the decision has already been made, start a plan to get the sport reinstated as they did at Fresno state.  This is going to take organizing from alumni and $$$$$.

When schools turn down money to keep a sport, it's clear where the priorities are. My point is that there are so many piss poor people in leadership at some of these schools and those are the schools hatcheting sports because their leadership is unable to check off some simple boxes and keep chasing pipedreams. Stanford isn't the example. I'll use some of the MAC schools like Akron or my alma mater in Norfolk, chasing the football dollar at what cost? So you can go 1-11 or better yet, go 10-3 and beat Eastern Michigan in a Thursday afternoon bowl game named after fried chicken? 

Those are the pretenders I'm talking about. The first thing some of these leaders need to do is stop pretending and looking for their next job. If your financial plan is ruined because of one season of football, then you done failed at your job. Akron, for example, will go to Clemson and take a beating for a million bucks or something like that. Maybe less, but while clamoring for college football to be played, these admins are putting their kids at risk by sending them into a game with a school with multiple times the resources and in some cases, multiple times more of the talent. Those are the games the FCS and middling-FBS kids get hurt in. Sure, you can capture lightning in a bottle like App State did vs. Michigan or ODU did vs. Virginia Tech, but Akron needs to be playing schools like itself or like-schools drop down to FCS and get over themselves as an FBS school. 

That's kinda where I'm going with this. This isn't all about the pandemic, but this pandemic has exposed where the shortcomings are in college sports more blatantly than previously accepted - except for SEC football fans (I kid, I kid, kinda). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

When schools turn down money to keep a sport, it's clear where the priorities are. My point is that there are so many piss poor people in leadership at some of these schools and those are the schools hatcheting sports because their leadership is unable to check off some simple boxes and keep chasing pipedreams. Stanford isn't the example. I'll use some of the MAC schools like Akron or my alma mater in Norfolk, chasing the football dollar at what cost? So you can go 1-11 or better yet, go 10-3 and beat Eastern Michigan in a Thursday afternoon bowl game named after fried chicken? 

Those are the pretenders I'm talking about. The first thing some of these leaders need to do is stop pretending and looking for their next job. If your financial plan is ruined because of one season of football, then you done failed at your job. Akron, for example, will go to Clemson and take a beating for a million bucks or something like that. Maybe less, but while clamoring for college football to be played, these admins are putting their kids at risk by sending them into a game with a school with multiple times the resources and in some cases, multiple times more of the talent. Those are the games the FCS and middling-FBS kids get hurt in. Sure, you can capture lightning in a bottle like App State did vs. Michigan or ODU did vs. Virginia Tech, but Akron needs to be playing schools like itself or like-schools drop down to FCS and get over themselves as an FBS school. 

That's kinda where I'm going with this. This isn't all about the pandemic, but this pandemic has exposed where the shortcomings are in college sports more blatantly than previously accepted - except for SEC football fans (I kid, I kid, kinda). 

I wonder if there’s any correlation between Stanford cutting 11 sports and their football team going 4-8 last season, the first year since 2008 that they didn’t make a bowl game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

I'll use some of the MAC schools like Akron or my alma mater in Norfolk, chasing the football dollar at what cost? So you can go 1-11 or better yet, go 10-3 and beat Eastern Michigan in a Thursday afternoon bowl game named after fried chicken? 

Sure, you can capture lightning in a bottle like App State did vs. Michigan or ODU did vs. Virginia Tech, but Akron needs to be playing schools like itself or like-schools drop down to FCS and get over themselves as an FBS school.

If the NCAA actually enforced its own attendance requirements for FBS football, most of the MAC would already have been punted to FCS in the last 10-15 years.

But, schools are allowed to cook the books and run through a bunch of loopholes to appear to make the minimum average -- when in reality, they are nowhere close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Fresno State on the chopping block? Ryan Reyes transferred to Oregon State today. Several others have transferred out. Investigation is ongoing with the recruiting party. The article I read said that the expenses outweighed the revenue by several hundred thousand.  What does the 8-ball say? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Is Fresno State on the chopping block? Ryan Reyes transferred to Oregon State today. Several others have transferred out. Investigation is ongoing with the recruiting party. The article I read said that the expenses outweighed the revenue by several hundred thousand.  What does the 8-ball say? 

Wasn’t there a kid who transferred from ODU to Fresno State? That’s going to be really awful if he can’t wrestle at FSU whether due to program sanctions or cuts, neither of which are his fault at all. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, pamela said:

Wasn’t there a kid who transferred from ODU to Fresno State? That’s going to be really awful if he can’t wrestle at FSU whether due to program sanctions or cuts, neither of which are his fault at all. :(

I think it was Molton....yes it would be a terrible situation. I hope FSU does not get dropped obviously - it would be devastating. There are a. lot of red flags....Luchau left now Reyes and there were others. Hoping they can hold on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Idaho said:

I think it was Molton....yes it would be a terrible situation. I hope FSU does not get dropped obviously - it would be devastating. There are a. lot of red flags....Luchau left now Reyes and there were others. Hoping they can hold on. 

I feel for him. He probably just wants to go out and compete and has been dealt some really bad hands that have nothing to do with his wrestling or academics. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will be an utterly useless post, but in the spirit of thinking outside the box:

Ohio State's 2019-20 football roster lists 126 players (I might have miscounted, could be off by one or two).  They have three punters and two placekickers.  The earliest OSU roster I can find is from 1960; it lists 68 names, 23 lettermen.  That was during the single-platoon days and a lot of schools got by with fewer than 50 players.

This is a game that allows each team just 11 players on the field at a time.  If limited substitutions were reinstated, players would be forced to play for longer stretches without a break.  This might result in smaller, healthier players who try to conserve their energy and avoid injury, and occasionally a guard might actually kick a field goal.  This is how football was played back in the 1950s, when according to legend it was wildly popular and profitable.

The reason football is no longer played this way is because the coaches became more important than the players or the game and demanded more from their schools to make them more competitive.  Like generals, they don't want to have to rely on their coaching brilliance in order to win, but in overpowering their opponents with superior numbers and talent.

If, perchance, football rosters were limited to 50 players in the renewed limited substitution era, the football programs' costs would be reduced substantially, the power of the head coaches would also be reduced, the product on the field would not be substantially affected, and the money would continue to flow in.  There might even be something left over for the minor sports and Title IX issues would not be as severe.

While you're telling yourself that these changes are impossible, also ask yourself why a team needs five guys who do nothing but kick.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jdalu75 said:

If, perchance, football rosters were limited to 50 players in the renewed limited substitution era

 

So, fewer players than NFL teams? Even the NFL runs with 65 (53 active + 12 practice squad).

Capping college rosters at 100 (75 total scholarships; 20 per year) would do a world of good. The equipment cost savings alone would be huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couldn't care less what the NFL does.  BTW, when George Plimpton wrote Paper Lion, the book that made his reputation, in 1963, the NFL's roster limit was 36.  Roger Brown was the only player in the league who weighed more than 300 pounds.  He exceeded the capacity of the team scale; the Lions weighed him in at the Ypsilanti Feed and Grain Store.  Maybe if the NFL had more 240-lb linemen they'd be injured less and live longer.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, ISUChip said:

So, fewer players than NFL teams? Even the NFL runs with 65 (53 active + 12 practice squad).

Capping college rosters at 100 (75 total scholarships; 20 per year) would do a world of good. The equipment cost savings alone would be huge.

There is a cap on the NCAA roster.  It is less than 125 currently listed on tOSU.  Scholarship cap is 85, all of which are full scholarships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

There is a cap on the NCAA roster.  It is less than 125 currently listed on tOSU.  Scholarship cap is 85, all of which are full scholarships.

There is a scholarship limit, but there is no roster limit. If you want 150 guys on the football roster, you can have 150. Of course, that also means having 3+ game pants, 3+ game jerseys, 3+ helmets, and full practice gear for 50+ guys who will never see one second of game action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, ISUChip said:

There is a scholarship limit, but there is no roster limit. If you want 150 guys on the football roster, you can have 150. Of course, that also means having 3+ game pants, 3+ game jerseys, 3+ helmets, and full practice gear for 50+ guys who will never see one second of game action.

I recall a walk-on limit from  the son of a friend's recruiting experience.  It was on the order of 20.  That is less than tOSU'S roster, so I must be talking out of my @$$!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

I recall a walk-on limit from  the son of a friend's recruiting experience.  It was on the order of 20.  That is less than tOSU'S roster, so I must be talking out of my @$$!

There is a limit on how many can participate in fall camp (before classes start). That limit is 110 (was 105 until couple of years ago), which will generally be the 85 scholarship + up to 25 "preferred" walk-ons. The rest of the roster can't "officially" join until the first day of class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

I recall a walk-on limit from  the son of a friend's recruiting experience.  It was on the order of 20.  That is less than tOSU'S roster, so I must be talking out of my @$$!

Some schools do their own limitations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, jdalu75 said:

I couldn't care less what the NFL does.  BTW, when George Plimpton wrote Paper Lion, the book that made his reputation, in 1963, the NFL's roster limit was 36.  Roger Brown was the only player in the league who weighed more than 300 pounds.  He exceeded the capacity of the team scale; the Lions weighed him in at the Ypsilanti Feed and Grain Store.  Maybe if the NFL had more 240-lb linemen they'd be injured less and live longer.

 

Going back to leather helmets would help reduce the number of head and neck injuries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ISUChip said:

There is a scholarship limit, but there is no roster limit. If you want 150 guys on the football roster, you can have 150. Of course, that also means having 3+ game pants, 3+ game jerseys, 3+ helmets, and full practice gear for 50+ guys who will never see one second of game action.

The NCAA tracks roster walk-ons though, and that can limit an athlete's ability to walk onto a team. It's to prevent a school from giving someone a cross-country scholarship, only to have that kid walk onto the football team. There's a whole flowchart of the walk-on/scholly count rules. It's also a loophole for wrestling, though - a football kid on scholarship who also wanted to wrestle would only count against football's scholly limit and not wrestling's 9.9. The roster limits are more of an athletic dept thing, as walk-ons incur costs like equipment, meals, tutoring, administrative & compliance tracking, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, pamela said:

The NCAA tracks roster walk-ons though, and that can limit an athlete's ability to walk onto a team. It's to prevent a school from giving someone a cross-country scholarship, only to have that kid walk onto the football team. There's a whole flowchart of the walk-on/scholly count rules. It's also a loophole for wrestling, though - a football kid on scholarship who also wanted to wrestle would only count against football's scholly limit and not wrestling's 9.9. The roster limits are more of an athletic dept thing, as walk-ons incur costs like equipment, meals, tutoring, administrative & compliance tracking, etc.

I don't believe they limit them though- other than what you say about cross-sport scholarships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, TexRef said:

Going back to leather helmets would help reduce the number of head and neck injuries

Doubtful.  But reducing the size and speed of the impacts might.

Football grew out of rugby.  Rugby is more or less played today the same way it was 150 years ago.  They manage somehow.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jdalu75 said:

Doubtful.  But reducing the size and speed of the impacts might.

Football grew out of rugby.  Rugby is more or less played today the same way it was 150 years ago.  They manage somehow.  

If football went back to leather helmets guys would stop putting their heads down and spearing or leading with their head. I know that some people say that they have gotten better, but if they had a leather helmet they would only lead with their head a few times and either stop, get injured and hopefully stop, or be removed from the gene pool. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Concussion stats

full article https://completeconcussions.com/2018/12/05/concussion-rates-what-sport-most-concussions/

Game Play

  1. Men’s rugby match play (3.00/1,000 AE)
  2. Men’s American football (2.5/1,000 AE)
  3. Women’s ice hockey (2.27/1,000 AE)
  4. Men’s Ice hockey (1.63/1,000 AE)
  5. Women’s soccer (1.48/1,000 AE)
  6. Men’s football (or soccer) (1.07/1,000 AE)

During practice

  1. Men’s rugby (0.37/1,000 AE)
  2. Women’s ice hockey (0.31/1,000 AE)
  3. Men’s American football (0.30/1,000 AE)
  4. Women’s football (or soccer) (0.13/1,000 AE)
  5. Men’s ice hockey (0.12/1,000 AE)
  6. Men’s football (or soccer) (0.08/1,000 AE)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...