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West Coast D I Wrestling.....

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With Stanford announcing its plans to drop wrestling after the 20-21 season, this leaves wrestling on the west coast at the NCAA D I level in an awful situation.

First off, only 2 PAC 12 teams of the 12 would sponsor wrestling, with 3 affiliate members. The conference would probably stop sponsoring the sport at this point.

This also would leave California with only 4 Division I teams (Cal Poly, Fresno St, Cal Baptist, and CSUB) which is awful. What conference do they go into? What about Oregon St and Arizona St?

Before covid existed I believed Division I wrestling was on a good path with new Division I teams being added in the south and a couple of Division II schools moving up.

I thought the west coast could maybe step up and add some teams, and with women's wrestling becoming an emerging sport, I was finally believing this would help get men's teams added at the D I level.

Hearing the news that Stanford is going to cut the team, I'm not sure what to think. It's just real sobering. I hope it will be saved, but after seeing Boise St, UC Davis, and Fullerton dropped, it's easy to be discouraged.

Somebody give me some positive news......and what's the solution? NCAA Division I needs to exist on the west coast and there should be more teams......

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Conference would not exist because Stanford dropped? Idk about that. Also I dont hear any news about wrestling is going to keep their season inside the conference. I saw the article that seems apply to only fall sports yet.

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52 minutes ago, Sean h said:

Conference would not exist because Stanford dropped? Idk about that. Also I dont hear any news about wrestling is going to keep their season inside the conference. I saw the article that seems apply to only fall sports yet.

Wrestling's chances of survival in the Pac is unfortunately not looking too good with (if) Stanford's out for good. With participation by only 2 full members + 3 affiliates, the conference may stop sponsoring wrestling. The commissioner, Larry Scott, thinks that the Olympic sports are a huge point of differentiation for the Pac-12 though esp if there's strong international interest and viewership in markets like China... but who knows if he's aware that folkstyle is different from the Olympic styles and that there's little crossover internationally.

Anyway, none of the conference's other sports have such a low member participation rate. Men's soccer has 5 member schools + 1 affiliate. Rowing will have 5 schools once Stanford is out. Though not ideal, I could see the Pac dropping wrestling and the west coast teams organizing in a wrestling-only pseudo-conference like the EIWA (the WIWA?). Could include Big12 wrestling schools also.

Edited by pamela

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* Fresno State reinstates wrestling - wants to be in the Pac 12

* Pac 12 at the time did not want more non-members - denied FSU

* Boise State drops wrestling - within weeks of FSU adding -opens up a non-member spot

*Pac 12 goes back to  Fresno State - but they are already in final stages with the Big 12

*Pac 12 has to re-evaluate the status - wants to add more teams

This Article: https://apnews.com/c0f15a1951ec4ab7af0a2d14b6b98bba

*Pac 12 adds LR to conference in order to maintain minimum number to have allocations

This Article: https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/05/03/pac12-wrestling-expansion/

*Cal Baptist goes D1 - speculated to also join Pac12 since the conference is now open to adding non-members

*Spring 2020 - Pac 12 still committed to growing it's wrestling conference

* This article: https://www.fairfieldsuntimes.com/sports/national/collegiate-wrestling-struggling-to-keep-its-foothold-in-the-west/article_e8b140d8-9403-11ea-954a-2326f6ccef3a.html

Quote from the article: “The CEOs and the Pac-12 Council voted to at least allow on a case-by-case basis additional affiliate applicants,’ Merino said. “There are additional opportunities down the road.”

Preliminary conversations have started recently on the change of policy and what additional affiliate members could be good fits for the Pac-12.

More regionalized programs could change the landscape out West as some programs could move from one conference to the Pac-12."

"“We are looking forward to building and helping the Pac-12 wrestling brand grow,” Merino said."

 

* Spring 2020: Zeke Jones says conference talking with Missouri to be added

* July 2020: Stanford drops wrestling - will still compete 2020-21

* To come: Stanford trying to save program 

* My Opinion: Coaches are obviously committed to and invested in the conference expanding as are some officials. The West needs to become regionalized by either creating a conference for wrestling - or adding to the Pac 12 (as stated in above articles is a possibility). They need to have a Western conference of some kind: Oregon State, Bakersfield, Cal Poly, ASU, Stanford (if saved), Utah Valley, Wyoming, N. Colorado, Air Force, Cal Baptist, Fresno State. 

 

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4 hours ago, Pinnum said:

The Mountain Pacific Sports Federation exists to give a home to orphaned programs in the region.   

https://mpsports.org
 

Wouldn’t be surprised if they start sponsoring wrestling.  But also wouldn’t be surprised if the Big 12 takes everyone. 

I forgot about the MPSF.......

That could be a good place for those schools that still have wrestling (for now) to land and have a confrence.

 

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Idaho, Wasn't there a conference for the western teams, just a few years ago? Seems like it included all of the non-Pac 12 teams, Air Force, NDSU, SDSU, UNI, UVU, and Wyoming to name a few.  

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33 minutes ago, pamela said:

The WWC.

Though, I believe they technically qualified through the Western Regional.  I think the WCC was never officially a conference with the ability to qualify athletes.  Which was fine since the NCAA pays for regionals and it was the same teams that competed in the WWC.

Also, I am not sure how MPS handle media.  But I suspect the home team keeps the media rights.

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I'm trying to remember. I believe it was the wac. When I started working the NCAA's in 87 there were 12 conferences. Pac10,w reg,wac. 

Southern, sec,acc,eiwa,b10,b8,mac,ecc,ewl,e reg. 

This is off the top of my head and they would change periodically with some merging or dropping. Maybe Jason or shp can list more definitively.

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3 hours ago, TexRef said:

Idaho, Wasn't there a conference for the western teams, just a few years ago? Seems like it included all of the non-Pac 12 teams, Air Force, NDSU, SDSU, UNI, UVU, and Wyoming to name a few.  

Yep it was a wrestling only conference that had about a 9-10 year run then transitioned to the Big 12. It’s last year was 2015 I believe.  It was called the WEC/West Regional. They Qualified 19-20 spots its last year if I remember. 
the Big Sky, WAC , WCC All switched around a lot in the late 80s and 90s

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On 7/13/2020 at 10:41 AM, Idaho said:

* Fresno State reinstates wrestling - wants to be in the Pac 12

* Pac 12 at the time did not want more non-members - denied FSU

* Boise State drops wrestling - within weeks of FSU adding -opens up a non-member spot

*Pac 12 goes back to  Fresno State - but they are already in final stages with the Big 12

*Pac 12 has to re-evaluate the status - wants to add more teams

This Article: https://apnews.com/c0f15a1951ec4ab7af0a2d14b6b98bba

*Pac 12 adds LR to conference in order to maintain minimum number to have allocations

This Article: https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/05/03/pac12-wrestling-expansion/

*Cal Baptist goes D1 - speculated to also join Pac12 since the conference is now open to adding non-members

*Spring 2020 - Pac 12 still committed to growing it's wrestling conference

* This article: https://www.fairfieldsuntimes.com/sports/national/collegiate-wrestling-struggling-to-keep-its-foothold-in-the-west/article_e8b140d8-9403-11ea-954a-2326f6ccef3a.html

Quote from the article: “The CEOs and the Pac-12 Council voted to at least allow on a case-by-case basis additional affiliate applicants,’ Merino said. “There are additional opportunities down the road.”

Preliminary conversations have started recently on the change of policy and what additional affiliate members could be good fits for the Pac-12.

More regionalized programs could change the landscape out West as some programs could move from one conference to the Pac-12."

"“We are looking forward to building and helping the Pac-12 wrestling brand grow,” Merino said."

 

* Spring 2020: Zeke Jones says conference talking with Missouri to be added

* July 2020: Stanford drops wrestling - will still compete 2020-21

* To come: Stanford trying to save program 

* My Opinion: Coaches are obviously committed to and invested in the conference expanding as are some officials. The West needs to become regionalized by either creating a conference for wrestling - or adding to the Pac 12 (as stated in above articles is a possibility). They need to have a Western conference of some kind: Oregon State, Bakersfield, Cal Poly, ASU, Stanford (if saved), Utah Valley, Wyoming, N. Colorado, Air Force, Cal Baptist, Fresno State. 

 

Excellent recap and summation here Idaho.   I agree that there needs to be a Western conference that is centered around the schools with wrestling programs in the PAC 12 and their affiliated schools who are in the West, i..e, not Little Rock, as well as the Mtn West schools (Fresno State, Wyoming & Air Force) and possibly Utah Valley, N.Colo. and Cal Baptist.  But that's going to be a tough sell IMO.   The years when those schools were basically independents in the WWC were pretty rough years for those programs.   It will be difficult for them to leave the Big 12 to go back to something similar to what they were in back then.

The MPSF might well be the solution for all of this.

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28 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Excellent recap and summation here Idaho.   I agree that there needs to be a Western conference that is centered around the schools with wrestling programs in the PAC 12 and their affiliated schools who are in the West, i..e, not Little Rock, as well as the Mtn West schools (Fresno State, Wyoming & Air Force) and possibly Utah Valley, N.Colo. and Cal Baptist.  But that's going to be a tough sell IMO.   The years when those schools were basically independents in the WWC were pretty rough years for those programs.   It will be difficult for them to leave the Big 12 to go back to something similar to what they were in back then.

The MPSF might well be the solution for all of this.

Bronco, You are correct it will be hard for any of those teams to leave the $$ & limelight of the Big 12. Idaho mentioned the WAC and Big Sky conferences, I know some guys that wrestled for Idaho State, Weber State, and Utah State waay back in the day. It would be nice to see some of those schools bring back their programs.

Several of those schools are chasing the dream of big time football. Utah State has gone to Alabama and Georgia in the same season for big payday games. Other than that, the football program has been a money pit. I can imagine this is not an isolated case either. I think those schools could and would benefit from an enrollment aspect and they would help wrestling in the west. I don't see it happening but it would be refreshing to have a new team in the Intermountain  West. 

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1 hour ago, Bronco said:

Excellent recap and summation here Idaho.   I agree that there needs to be a Western conference that is centered around the schools with wrestling programs in the PAC 12 and their affiliated schools who are in the West, i..e, not Little Rock, as well as the Mtn West schools (Fresno State, Wyoming & Air Force) and possibly Utah Valley, N.Colo. and Cal Baptist.  But that's going to be a tough sell IMO.   The years when those schools were basically independents in the WWC were pretty rough years for those programs.   It will be difficult for them to leave the Big 12 to go back to something similar to what they were in back then.

The MPSF might well be the solution for all of this.

Yeah, I agree,  it might be a tough sell. A positive that could come out of all this might be that teams have to cut costs (a given) which may force them to align with the West. If Teams can cut travel costs and start having Tri meets and quad meets instead of spending thousands to travel half way across the US to wrestle one dual, it would cut a lot. The cost to fly 15-16 people across the country, stay in hotels, eat, rent a van, etc. is very expensive. Having 4 tri meets or quad meets could really save money. I'm not sure how the logistics would look - they all move to the Pac-12 instead since it's Western and already established? Would the Pac-12 go for that? Would those teams move based solely on expenses? OR does the Pac12 allow the Big 12 to absorb it's wrestling schools? Would the Big 12 go for that?  Is the MPSF the right way to go? Would the Pac-12 allow the member schools to do something like that? Could and agreement be made that gives the Pac-12 all the media rights? Lots of questions and scenarios could be at play. It certainly isn't an easy task, but whatever the means, I hope that the West can create something. 

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I have been a proponent of three team duals (in conference) for a long time.   To me it makes a LOT of sense to do that.  Don't know about 4 team duals tho.

Just because I am a Boise State fan (and therefore a Mtn. West fan) I'll throw another log on this fire and suggest that MAYBE the Mountain West Conference could be convinced to add wrestling as a Conference sport.   Three of the current Mtn. West schools have a wrestling team (Air Force, Fresno State and Wyoming).   IF the PAC 12 were to fold up their wrestling "tent" that MIGHT be an alternative to the MPSF - IF the Mtn West could be talked into doing that.  However, that having been said, the long-time Mtn. West Commissioner doesn't seem open to any new ideas similar to that.   The term "stick in the mud" applies pretty well to Craig Thompson.

I have a question for those who are knowledgeable about Big 12 Conference wrestling.  Am I correct in my assumption that the Big 12 wrestling conference championships are ALWAYS held in Tulsa, Oklahoma?  If so - WHY?  To me that seems like a good reason to NOT be affiliated with the Big 12 for wrestling.

Edited by Bronco

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44 minutes ago, Bronco said:

I have been a proponent of three team duals (in conference) for a long time.   To me it makes a LOT of sense to do that.  Don't know about 4 team duals tho.

Wouldn't that be tri-als and and quadri-als?

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1 hour ago, Bronco said:

I have been a proponent of three team duals (in conference) for a long time.   

I disagree.

I think the trading of home and away visits in conference contests is a basic precept of conference membership.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong with bundling a non-conference dual with a conference dual on occasion.

For instance, Oregon State is at Cal Baptist for their conference dual and Penn also comes to Cal Baptist for the date.

  • Oregon State vs Cal Baptist (Conference)
  • Cal Baptist vs Penn 
  • Oregon State vs Penn

Oregon State already budgeted for the conference trip.  They get an extra dual against a team from the East.  Penn gets a west coast swing with two duals against D1 teams from different areas of the west coast.  Cal Baptist can make a return trip out East and get some matches against other schools as well.  Everyone is better off. 

 

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2 hours ago, Pinnum said:

I disagree.

I think the trading of home and away visits in conference contests is a basic precept of conference membership.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong with bundling a non-conference dual with a conference dual on occasion.

For instance, Oregon State is at Cal Baptist for their conference dual and Penn also comes to Cal Baptist for the date.

  • Oregon State vs Cal Baptist (Conference)
  • Cal Baptist vs Penn 
  • Oregon State vs Penn

Oregon State already budgeted for the conference trip.  They get an extra dual against a team from the East.  Penn gets a west coast swing with two duals against D1 teams from different areas of the west coast.  Cal Baptist can make a return trip out East and get some matches against other schools as well.  Everyone is better off. 

 

Makes sense. I’ve always wondered why teams will spend a ton of money to travel all that way for 1 dual. However I think it still works for in conference as well. , I don’t think that this financial crunch is a 1 year deal. This is going to stretch out and the changes to save money may become the new normal. You could easily have OSU vs Poly Vs ASU and change locations each year for the next 3 seasons. Whatever the case may be, teams are going to have to figure out how to save money and scheduling is certainly one of them. 

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2 hours ago, Pinnum said:

I disagree.

I think the trading of home and away visits in conference contests is a basic precept of conference membership.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong with bundling a non-conference dual with a conference dual on occasion.

For instance, Oregon State is at Cal Baptist for their conference dual and Penn also comes to Cal Baptist for the date.

  • Oregon State vs Cal Baptist (Conference)
  • Cal Baptist vs Penn 
  • Oregon State vs Penn

Oregon State already budgeted for the conference trip.  They get an extra dual against a team from the East.  Penn gets a west coast swing with two duals against D1 teams from different areas of the west coast.  Cal Baptist can make a return trip out East and get some matches against other schools as well.  Everyone is better off. 

 

 

You and I MAY be referring to two different things here.  When I referred (above) to CONFERENCE three team duals what I was referring to was School A hosts the dual.  Schools B and C compete against School A but do NOT dual against one another at School A.   Say each school does that once or twice per season.   That gives them two matches and only use one of the NCAA limited dates to do so.   I'm thinking you were referring to all three schools having a dual on the same day against the other two teams.

If they bring in another (non-conference) school and have them dual all three schools all the better as then all schools involved would have at least two matches in one day.

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1 minute ago, Bronco said:

 

You and I MAY be referring to two different things here.  When I referred (above) to CONFERENCE three team duals what I was referring to was School A hosts the dual.  Schools B and C compete against School A but do NOT dual against one another at School A.   Say each school does that once or twice per season.   That gives them two matches and only use one of the NCAA limited dates to do so.   I'm thinking you were referring to all three schools having a dual on the same day against the other two teams.

If they bring in another (non-conference) school and have them dual all three schools all the better as then all schools involved would have at least two matches in one day.

Okay, so if I am understanding you; I think this is worse than originally thought.

Let's run through this and correct me if I am wrong...

  • Team A = Oregon State
  • Team B = Arizona State
  • Team C = Little Rock

So...

  • Little Rock flies to Oregon State for one Dual on Day X.
  • Arizona State flies to Oregon State for one Dual on Day X.
  • Oregon State has two duals (Little Rock and Arizona State) on Day X.

Did I get that right?

So there is no benefit for Little Rock.  They spend the same amount of money as they would have anyways for a single dual.  This doesn't help them any.  It doesn't get them to compete against more teams for the same amount of money they are already set to spend to compete the conference schedule.

The same is true of Arizona State.  Spending the same for a single dual. No change.  No benefit for them.

And for the host, Oregon State now has one home date, rather than two home dates for their fans.  They sell admission to one date rather than two.  Their athletes get one opportunity to compete at home rather than two.

 

This cuts down on home dates.  But home dates are not an issue, in fact, more home dates would be better for programs.  I am really failing to see any benefit in this.  It really seems like a proposal someone who doesn't like wrestling would make so they don't have to be bothered multiple times a season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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