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hammerlockthree

Drama aside, how much should the women get paid?

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Despite the fact that Downey is attemping to conflate opinion with "fact" and "truth", he is not wrong that from an economic standpoint people should be paid in proportion to their value. I'm not aware of how to quantify the value of one wrestler over another, but I have a feeling the call for equal pay is ridiculous(I'd be curious if those making that claim want Dake to make less or everyone else to make more)...it also seems disproportionate that Dake and CHamizo are making 50x as much as the women....

A further complication is Flos status as a subscription service makes the profit motive tougher to parallel than if they could measure the wrestlers value by filling stands....

Any thoughts on this? Tough issue...

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CP claimed that the women were offered comparable amounts to others on the undercard. Of course, he does not define comparable. And comparable can certainly be in the eye of the beholder. He also does not clarify if the comparable offers were to the original 8 wrestlers or to the wrestlers offered after Sally Roberts got involved or both.

I assume that not everyone on the undercard was getting the same amount. If what PD3 claims is accurate and Chamizo / Dake are getting 50k (and there is a lot of reason to believe that Flo would never share that info with him) and he and Taylor were offerd 10k, I would think the rest of the undercard would be in the 5k or less category. If I assume 3k-5k for those without the credentials of PD3 or Taylor, then perhaps the same for the women. Or perhaps Flo considers 2-3k to be comparable to 3-5k. Who knows?

What we also do not know is who the original 8 were that turned them down flat. One would assume that it would be the best of the best. Perhaps they were included in the Sally Roberts facilitated group, or perhaps not. But if we assume credentials matter, because are synonymous with name recognition and lead to clicks, then maybe comparable is in the 5 - 10k range.

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Helen would get paid just as much or more than some of the men, but with her previous injury history I can see why she wouldn't want to risk it a year before the Olympics.  I think the rest of the team doesn't have the type of following to get paid what they think they are worth.  

 

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41 minutes ago, LJB said:

Flo knows who gets the clicks...

every article... every video... every live event they have streamed...

it is the only metric that matters...

The counter argument to that would be that that metric represents a self-reinforcing pattern that stifles the potential of women's wrestling.

I'm not certain if I believe that or not....Flo posted a Fargo highlight on twitter today, mostly guys getting thrown on their heads, Julia Salata commented that their were no girls on the whole video. My initial reaction was to be annoyed, but upon reflection I don't think she is wrong to point out that we should probably take more steps to normalize womens wrestling, even within the wrestling community.

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11 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

not if you count the $ made on the subscriptions of the people who watch it....

Those subscriptions have already been paid for. 

the metric that needs to be measured is how many NEW subscriptions they will gain by putting on this event. My guess is very few. 

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2 minutes ago, Witherman said:

Those subscriptions have already been paid for. 

the metric that needs to be measured is how many NEW subscriptions they will gain by putting on this event. My guess is very few. 

The thing is Flo has just been sitting on everyone’s yearly subscription fees since the nation has been shut down. They haven’t been to any events, no travel fees, haven’t hosted any events. They were probably gearing up to pour a ton of money into Olympic wrestling coverage. 
 

They will spend a lot of money on this event, but they also haven’t spent any money since NCAA wrestling ended in March. 

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2 minutes ago, Witherman said:

Those subscriptions have already been paid for. 

the metric that needs to be measured is how many NEW subscriptions they will gain by putting on this event. My guess is very few. 

Absolutely not. The whole of having a subscription is access to live events. You're assuming Flo could stop broadcasting live events and maintain its current subscribers, which is absurd.

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Make three cards.

One card all Men's Feestyle with one match at each weight class, one card all Greco-Roman, and one card all Women's Freestyle.

Make them all the same cost and make every match between Top 5 people in the weight classes between folks who haven't wrestled 100 times the last few years.

Then make it the same price with equal share to every grappler(2.5% or so?).

Compare then apply.

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the long and the short of it is, you are worth monetarily what someone else thinks you are... nothing more...

clearly, flo has a number they have derived from what their traffic shows...

someone else can put an entirely different number to it if they choose to...

and until someone else does that, what flo is paying is exactly what any athlete is worth... they can choose to accept it or not...

 

pletcher made an interesting comment today on FRL... he said he could not believe how anyone could turn down any money to wrestle... almost any amount is more than fair for 6 minutes of work... he has been wrestling for 19 years and he was thrilled that finally someone wanted to give him some money to do it...

it is a valid point...

 

i actually watch womens wrestling... the highest levels is just as entertaining to me than the men and infinitely more exciting than just about any folk match...

and everyone pretty much knows there is no bigger greco proponent on this bbs than me...

when Flo announced this card, it never once crossed my mind to be offended there was no greco or womens matches... 

of course there isn't... 

duh...

 

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10 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Make three cards.

One card all Men's Feestyle with one match at each weight class, one card all Greco-Roman, and one card all Women's Freestyle.

Make them all the same cost and make every match between Top 5 people in the weight classes between folks who haven't wrestled 100 times the last few years.

Then make it the same price with equal share to every grappler(2.5% or so?).

Compare then apply.

They don’t have to compare the data is already there hence the reason chamizo and dake are getting paid what they are. 

the only difference is now we live in a PC/cancel culture era where doing what is good for business is no longer important. 

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17 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Helen would get paid just as much or more than some of the men, but with her previous injury history I can see why she wouldn't want to risk it a year before the Olympics.  I think the rest of the team doesn't have the type of following to get paid what they think they are worth.  

 

Seems she was not one of the original ones contacted (and I think Hildbrebrandt said the same).  So the $1,000 that was thrown around on twitter was from Wrestle Like a Girl, not Flo.   So seems like CP is trying to imply they offered more than Wrestle Like a Girl...

Honestly I was kinda surprised Dake was getting so much more than Taylor...

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11 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Seems she was not one of the original ones contacted (and I think Hildbrebrandt said the same).  So the $1,000 that was thrown around on twitter was from Wrestle Like a Girl, not Flo.   So seems like CP is trying to imply they offered more than Wrestle Like a Girl...

Honestly I was kinda surprised Dake was getting so much more than Taylor...

It’s all about the matchup. Dake Chamizo has been a match everyone has wanted to see for a while now. Who could you put against Taylor that would provide that kinda buzz?

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16 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

It’s all about the matchup. Dake Chamizo has been a match everyone has wanted to see for a while now. Who could you put against Taylor that would provide that kinda buzz?

I think Askren might have a suggestion...

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48 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

It’s all about the matchup. Dake Chamizo has been a match everyone has wanted to see for a while now. Who could you put against Taylor that would provide that kinda buzz?

J'Den Cox

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Make an all girls card (best girls you can get) and an all guys card.  See what the numbers are and that shows the demand.  

I suspect it won't do well and that's why they like to mix the big womens matches between the big mens matches.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

Absolutely not. The whole of having a subscription is access to live events. You're assuming Flo could stop broadcasting live events and maintain its current subscribers, which is absurd.

Hey hey hey, they showed some old Penn State clips and interviewed themselves about them and called it a docuseries

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I expect that this event is NOT about new subscriptions.  It is about keeping the ones they have.  
 

I would expect that many subscriptions coming up for renewal are being cancelled with no new wrestling to watch.  They need to have reasons for people to stick around and keep paying.

 

And while it makes economic sense to pay the contestant proportionately what they are worth from the simple short term incremental revenue (or reduced rev loss) perspective, Flo needs to monitor their brand and how the politically correct winds are blowing.   That later part can impact long-term revenue. 

 

 

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It's a tough spot.  The women would be more popular if they got more prominent coverage, but how much is the question?  There have been massive ad campaigns besides the WNBA, and that hasn't move the needle much.  Then again, the women's national soccer team is more successful and on par, popularity wise, with the men's side, but that is aided by being, by far, the best team in the world for a LONG time.

There's no way you could financially justify PAYING the women's competitors something like Downey/Taylor/Dake/Chamizo.  They just don't drive traffic.  But maybe they will at some point if they start getting more coverage.  That's not a Flo problem, though, and it feels disingenuous that we put it on them like any of the other outlets are huge proponents.  Intermat or Track or TOM could set themselves up as THE place to go for women's wrestling if they saw money in it, but they don't.  None of the larger media organizations puts some huge push behind women's wrestling, I follow all of them.

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

It's a tough spot.  The women would be more popular if they got more prominent coverage, but how much is the question?  There have been massive ad campaigns besides the WNBA, and that hasn't move the needle much.  Then again, the women's national soccer team is more successful and on par, popularity wise, with the men's side, but that is aided by being, by far, the best team in the world for a LONG time.

There's no way you could financially justify PAYING the women's competitors something like Downey/Taylor/Dake/Chamizo.  They just don't drive traffic.  But maybe they will at some point if they start getting more coverage.  That's not a Flo problem, though, and it feels disingenuous that we put it on them like any of the other outlets are huge proponents.  Intermat or Track or TOM could set themselves up as THE place to go for women's wrestling if they saw money in it, but they don't.  None of the larger media organizations puts some huge push behind women's wrestling, I follow all of them.

helen maroulis is butthurt there just isn't a flo doc about her yet. 

women don't really drive traffic in any sport. And will do so less in wrestling. Theres more womens basketball players and potential female viewers with interest in basketball than females with interest in wrestling. It's all male viewership they would be relying on and is a real man going to honestly say he can get hyped up for a womens match like he can dake/chamizo ?? 

and women won't either. they prefer watching male sports. Because both genders see the difference between high level and low level. Women watch nba and don't watch wnba.

Males were put on this earth to do combat high level sports and women are inherently more boring to watch doing athletic skill than men. It's just biology. They don't have the strength, speed, etc to make it exciting. These are just facts. Not opinion. Women agree with these facts or they would support their own.

All the more shame to the pat downey situation. A man gets slammed for stating facts.

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