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THEMAN

Please Help - Karelin question.

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ALEXANDER KARELIN;

is unquestionably the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler of all time so please don't take my questions as disrespectful. The following are facts but due to a catastrophic failure on an external hard drive I have lost my proof of the facts.

1, Karelin lost a match sometime several years before losing to Rulson Gardner, in the worlds, to another wrestler. However, he managed to get the result overturned. Can anyone link to a story that confirms this fact.

2, Karelin tried to get his loss to Rulon Gardner overturned.

Again, these are completely true facts I would just like to have confirmation to show others. 

 

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His only loss prior to Rulon's 2000 victory, was in the 80s to a fellow Russian while Karelin was still a teenager in a Russian tournament. Once he became 'The Man' for Russia he never lost until Sydney.

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4 hours ago, THEMAN said:

ALEXANDER KARELIN;

is unquestionably the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler of all time so please don't take my questions as disrespectful. The following are facts but due to a catastrophic failure on an external hard drive I have lost my proof of the facts.

1, Karelin lost a match sometime several years before losing to Rulson Gardner, in the worlds, to another wrestler. However, he managed to get the result overturned. Can anyone link to a story that confirms this fact.

2, Karelin tried to get his loss to Rulon Gardner overturned.

Again, these are completely true facts I would just like to have confirmation to show others. 

 

Why wouldn't he try to get that overturned?    Apart from Sydney, I don't recall him losing on the mat. Some folks assume he lost a match because he placed second in a world cup, but that was a team effort. 

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That is not true. He lost a match in 1998 0r 1999 and got the result overturned. I know that they is a lot of Karelin Worship but many of the headlines are false (no one had scored on Karelin for 6 years before his match with Rulon; Karelin had not be scored on for 10 years etc), as I said I had these results on my external hard drive but it died. They are true recorded facts I was hoping someone had a link to verify.  

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"Some folks assume he lost a match because he placed second in a world cup, but that was a team effort. "

I am not talking about that. It was a single effort at either the worlds (more likely) or the Europeans (less likely) that Karelin challenged and won. As I said to the pervious user my statements are completely true - I was wondering if someone could link to some verification. 

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This is the problem - there is so much mythology surrounding Karelin that it is almost impossible to get the facts. For example Karelin's Wikipedia states that Karelin had not had a point scored on for six years before the Gardner match. The information link is to comments by former Greco-Roman National Team Coach, Steve Fraser. However in in just the year before, 1999; Karelin dropped a point to G. Saldadze. I think Fraser was too busy believing the hype rather than looking at reality.  

If this helps but I think that the overturned math was against Mureiko. However I am not sure.  

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" He was a hero , not cool to drag his name through the mud" 

As I said, pure hero worship on you part. I am not dragging his name through the mud at all. Facts please not unthinking praise. 

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3 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Could it have been a match with Sergei Mureiko- Bulgaria (Previously, Moldova)? I see a 0-0 in the world's in 1999.

 

Actually the final result was 2-0 to Karelin. However I think it is the that very match that Mureiko was initially declared the winner before the result  being overturned. Thanks for looking.

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Are you saying someone else actually had their hand raised, there was some sort of meeting after the match and then Karelin was declared the winner?  Or the other guy was ahead after the last whistle, they rescored it and Karelin's hand was raised?

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The UWW database is not very useful as it lists only list the final result and not if a match was overturned. I am sure most people know about Cary Kolat having wins overturned but there is nothing in the database about it.

Edited by THEMAN

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1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

What did you have on the hard drive? Was it an article? A video? Something else?

I found videos of them wrestling in 96, 98 and 2000, but not the 99 match.

They were word documents taken from news articles. It is over 20 years ago now but I am sure the informati9on is out there somewhere - I just can't find it.

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6 hours ago, THEMAN said:

Actually the final result was 2-0 to Karelin. However I think it is the that very match that Mureiko was initially declared the winner before the result  being overturned. Thanks for looking.

Not that wikipedia is always right but it shows 0-0 for 99. 97 shows 2-0.

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8 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

The UWW database looks like it carelessly records many matches as 0-0.  Karelin vs Giuseppe Giunta in 1999, for example.

that's not incorrect, Giunta didn't show up, faked an injury or something to not waste his energy in an impossible mission, still advanced to the next round as one of the best runner-ups and eventually finished 4th. (only in 1999 rules were different)

Edited by wrestfan

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19 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

There was a period where they rescored matches with video (e.g. Kolat), but I recall wrestling again rather than overturning.  Sounds fishy.  He was a hero , not cool to drag his name through the mud.

that was 2000, before that somewhere around 1997-1998 it was just overturning.

for example I remember Kerry McCoy beating Alexis Rodriguez 1-1 in 1998 Worlds (Tehran) but after a protest from Cuba, they overturned the decision and gave it 4-1 to Cuba. that was the semifinal.

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5 hours ago, wrestfan said:

that's not incorrect, Giunta didn't show up, faked an injury or something to not waste his energy in an impossible mission, still advanced to the next round as one of the best runner-ups and eventually finished 4th. (only in 1999 rules were different)

In fact the UWW database lists the match time at 0:00. so it clearly is a forfeit.

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5 hours ago, wrestfan said:

that was 2000, before that somewhere around 1997-1998 it was just overturning.

for example I remember Kerry McCoy beating Alexis Rodriguez 1-1 in 1998 Worlds (Tehran) but after a protest from Cuba, they overturned the decision and gave it 4-1 to Cuba. that was the semifinal.

Exactly, there is no mention of the protest on the UWW database; as in the case of the Karelin match. It is virtually impossible, other than long memories, to even say that these things happened. That is my predicament - knowing something happened and being unable to prove it. 

Edited by THEMAN

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