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AnklePicker

Is flo offering bonuses?

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

The UFC had to quit offering specific knockout or submission bonuses because they were having too many events with neither... so they changed it to just a performance bonus so they could still award the extra money for a drunken brawl...

 

They changed the name to give themselves more options, so they can also reward great fights with a lot of action. 

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1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

You think if any match on this card ended with a 20-18 score, it would be sloppy wrestling? Lol. That’s often the case with jr. high matches, but when guys like Dake and Chamizo are putting up double digit points, it’s some exciting wrestling with high level technique! I agree the match score doesn’t always tell how exciting it is, but there is a correlation. JO vs Nolf is a good example... if JO has some extra incentive to put up points, we would have had some entertaining scrambles at least

Yes, I 100% do think it would be sloppy at best and disingenuous at worst...

Appreciate the sport for what it is and quit trying to force a fake outcome...

 

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1 minute ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

They changed the name to give themselves more options, so they can also reward great fights with a lot of action. 

Because there were many cards where either a knockout or submission or both did not happen...

the bonus system does not do what you claim it does...

but, it does fool some of the slower “fans”

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

Because there were many cards where either a knockout or submission or both did not happen...

the bonus system does not do what you claim it does...

but, it does fool some of the slower “fans”

You’re like an idiot radio host who just takes the other side of what makes sense and disagree with everyone as to why your not an idiot. Well I’m not fooled you’re definitely an idiot who makes very little sense if any. The performance bonus does exactly what it says it does, it promotes action and aggression. 

Edited by Ogalthorpe Haywood

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29 minutes ago, LJB said:

Yes, I 100% do think it would be sloppy at best and disingenuous at worst...

Appreciate the sport for what it is and quit trying to force a fake outcome...

 

Exactly. Financially incentivizing action over competition turns it into an NBA all star game where the score is 200-190 but it is unwatchable.  The rules of the sport need to be such that action and competition are both positively correlated (I.e. reward wrestlers who take risks by giving more points for big moves). But you don’t do this with financial incentive-the only goal of the athlete should be to win-that’s what makes it sport and not entertainment like WWE. 

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28 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

You’re like an idiot radio host who just takes the other side of what makes sense and disagree with everyone as to why your not an idiot. Well I’m not fooled you’re definitely an idiot who makes very little sense if any. The performance bonus does exactly what it says it does, it promotes action and aggression. 

So very average...

no matter...

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37 minutes ago, LJB said:

Because there were many cards where either a knockout or submission or both did not happen...

the bonus system does not do what you claim it does...

but, it does fool some of the slower “fans”

You are correct, and the problem with UFC is not just the bonus structure. It is endemic to the sport itself because it determines pay and matchups. Average fighters like Nate Diaz make more than those who defend a belt 10 times in a row in a boring manner. Boring fighters in contention take years to be given a shot, while exciting ones are repeatedly given opportunities, despite being worse. 

I’m not saying this is wrong from an economic sense, as it is fair for those who sell the most PPVs to make the most $$ and for the UFC to promote those who make the most money. But it does make UFC more entertainment than sport-and it would be a shame for wrestling to try to follow this model.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

You are correct, but the problem with UFC is not just the bonus structure. It is endemic to the sport itself because it determines pay and matchups. Average fighters like Nate Diaz make more than those who defend a belt 10 times in a row in a boring manner. Boring fighters in contention take years to be given a shot, while exciting ones are repeatedly given opportunities, despite being worse. 

I’m not saying this is wrong from an economic sense, as it makes sense that those who sell the most PPVs make the most $$, and that the UFC will seek to promote those who make the most money. But it does make UFC more entertainment than sport-and it would be a shame for wrestling to try to follow this model.

I do not disagree with this at all...

I will say that I do think the best fighters still rise to the top regardless, but, the UFC absolutely does not put merit over spectacle...

i waffle back and forth on whether I think this is good or bad or if it really matters...

the tournament format will always be the absolute purest way of determining a champ...

 

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6 minutes ago, LJB said:

I do not disagree with this at all...

I will say that I do think the best fighters still rise to the top regardless, but, the UFC absolutely does not put merit over spectacle...

i waffle back and forth on whether I think this is good or bad or if it really matters...

the tournament format will always be the absolute purest way of determining a champ...

 

If a fighter can maintain excellence for enough time, then  he will eventually rise to the top. But an exciting fighter is much more likely to get an opportunity early on, which is critical. Every time you fight, there is some chance you lose. So only needing 4 exciting victories in a row to get a shot is a lot more manageable than needing 10 boring ones. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

Yes, I 100% do think it would be sloppy at best and disingenuous at worst...

Appreciate the sport for what it is and quit trying to force a fake outcome...

 

Yeah I tried to do that but if the Nolf Oliver match is representative of what these exhibition matches really are, I’ll pass. My point on offering bonuses for EXHIBITION MATCHES. 

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16 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Yeah I tried to do that but if the Nolf Oliver match is representative of what these exhibition matches really are, I’ll pass. My point on offering bonuses for EXHIBITION MATCHES. 

Nolf v JO looked like half of every folk match in this country... 

Yes, it was an awful display of wrestling, but, they were already being paid to entertain... and they both **** the bed... 
but, it was at least real...

if you want a sparring session, go watch practice...

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14 minutes ago, LJB said:

Nolf v JO looked like half of every folk match in this country... 

Yes, it was an awful display of wrestling, but, they were already being paid to entertain... and they both **** the bed... 
but, it was at least real...

if you want a sparring session, go watch practice...

Disagree, very few folk matches are that boring. Again...why is it the UFC offers bonuses?  Do you think they like giving away extra money?  

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20 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Disagree, very few folk matches are that boring. Again...why is it the UFC offers bonuses?  Do you think they like giving away extra money?  

Most folk matches are that boring... folk rewards not wrestling... 

JO and Nolf were already paid to wrestle and they refused... how much more money was going to change that?

there were good matches on that rooftop without any manufactured drama...

why?

As for the UFC, they toss some crumbs to a 12 and 12 fighter who would have fought no different had there been no bonus...

there were good and bad fights before these bonuses... there have been good and bad fights since these bonuses...

it hasn’t changed anything...

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

Most folk matches are that boring... folk rewards not wrestling... 

JO and Nolf were already paid to wrestle and they refused... how much more money was going to change that?

there were good matches on that rooftop without any manufactured drama...

why?

As for the UFC, they toss some crumbs to a 12 and 12 fighter who would have fought no different had there been no bonus...

there were good and bad fights before these bonuses... there have been good and bad fights since these bonuses...

it hasn’t changed anything...

Yet they still have them. You can’t quantify if they worked or not but obviously the UFC, who I’m sure has looked into it just a bit more than you, does. 

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Scoring-based bonus should be fine for an exhibition that doesn't count towards anything. You'll get the tactical chess match style wrestling at official UWW events, why not incentivize wrestlers to take risks, create a spectacle and draw interest to the sport when the stakes are low?

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18 minutes ago, pamela said:

Scoring-based bonus should be fine for an exhibition that doesn't count towards anything. You'll get the tactical chess match style wrestling at official UWW events, why not incentivize wrestlers to take risks, create a spectacle and draw interest to the sport when the stakes are low?

Because then it isn’t real...

and if it isn’t real what’s the damn point?

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

Because then it isn’t real...

and if it isn’t real what’s the damn point?

Same assertion can be made under no-bonus system. "It didn't count, so I didn't care about winning, I just wanted to get a workout and not get hurt."

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6 minutes ago, pamela said:

Same assertion can be made under no-bonus system. "It didn't count, so I didn't care about winning, I just wanted to get a workout and not get hurt."

Why do you bother watching?

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

Why do you bother watching?

You're asking the wrong question - I'm not the one who needs to be drawn into the sport. You should be asking why more people aren't bothering to watch.

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2 minutes ago, pamela said:

You're asking the wrong question - I'm not the one who needs to be drawn into the sport. You should be asking why more people aren't bothering to watch.

I know why people aren’t watching and I don’t care...

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1 minute ago, pamela said:

I think you'll find what you're looking for at actual UWW events instead of exhibitions.

I find what I’m looking for every time I watch a match...

truth...

I don’t require manufactured drama...

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

I find what I’m looking for every time I watch a match...

truth...

I don’t require manufactured drama...

Yah, I think we're making the same point. Maybe events like tonight's aren't intended for fans like yo? I had a former coworker who used to similarly get worked up over spring training baseball, didn't like the experimentation and goofing around. Wanted to see pro baseball players acting like pro baseball players.

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3 minutes ago, pamela said:

Yah, I think we're making the same point. Maybe events like tonight's aren't intended for fans like yo? I had a former coworker who used to similarly get worked up over spring training baseball, didn't like the experimentation and goofing around. Wanted to see pro baseball players acting like pro baseball players.

If I want to watch something fake, I’ll watch a movie...

and tonight’s event is just fine for me, the participants won’t be faking it... they all will be trying to win... and if that means a few 2-1 scores, I’m totally ok with that...

perhaps you should stick to spring baseball...

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

If I want to watch something fake, I’ll watch a movie...

and tonight’s event is just fine for me, the participants won’t be faking it... they all will be trying to win... and if that means a few 2-1 scores, I’m totally ok with that...

perhaps you should stick to spring baseball...

I... don't watch spring baseball? I'm just saying you're a purist like my former colleague Tim, who has great difficulty distinguishing between exhibition and official events, what's driving both types.

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