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Iowa Hawkeyes -- Culture with black athletes

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2 hours ago, Cementmixer103 said:

Are you referring to me?

Look.. This whole thread is silly.

The only point I wanted to make is that high school wrestling in NYC is doing well. But. If you were to look at national averages we definitely have a higher rate of minority participation, no doubt due to location. Yes, believe it or not, they can field a full team! Wow! Imagine that? 

I know it's hard for some of you to imagine a team of mostly 14 or 15 african American or lation students BUT.. Get ready for it, it's happening here! Wow. What a world. Unbelievable stuff, huh?

 

Lot of you guys still living in 1960

Insert gif. Of point flying over your head

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Like what?  

Honestly even before race enters it. How honest wrestling is with itself and how it’s perceived outside The inner community of wrestling culture. 
 

Then more conversations about the the state of wrestling and it’s general trend outside a very small self cannibalising “elite” crowd. 
 

Then before all the other stuff comes into play. A lot of people need to be willing to admit they really don’t want wrestling to grow outside of the current club system and culture. Because quite frankly. If wrestling grew and expanded outside its current area and demographic. And the grass roots system and more of “those other people” developed into elite talent... well that would mean all that club money, tournament fees and clinic money, didn’t make you part of the, eye roll, “elite” and wasn’t worth it.


and anyone who doesn’t want to believe that this “fuuuuukk you, get mine” attitude. With either deliberate or willful ignorance of the effects on the sport long term are decirving themselves.

 

 

and yes all relate directly to the race issue in different ways. And all of this is before the straight racist, both unintentionally and intentionally come into play.

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22 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You said you were willing to bet money the person posting was referring to public schools in bad areas and that’s exactly the point I was making.

Lol I gotcha. And yeah, 75 schools with a “team” doesn’t matter if 60 have 3-4 kids with massive turnover. As far as actually growing the sport

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40 minutes ago, Cementmixer103 said:

Very cool. What year(s) if you don't mind me asking? Very possible my name was one of them you announced. 

I wrestled 04 - 06 in NYC before going to St Benedict's

I helped run a number of tournaments. I announced some. Hard to say if I did a specific one that you were at. However, I also have been running the preps since your parents might have been in grade school!

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25 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Honestly even before race enters it. How honest wrestling is with itself and how it’s perceived outside The inner community of wrestling culture. 
 

Then more conversations about the the state of wrestling and it’s general trend outside a very small self cannibalising “elite” crowd. 
 

Then before all the other stuff comes into play. A lot of people need to be willing to admit they really don’t want wrestling to grow outside of the current club system and culture. Because quite frankly. If wrestling grew and expanded outside its current area and demographic. And the grass roots system and more of “those other people” developed into elite talent... well that would mean all that club money, tournament fees and clinic money, didn’t make you part of the, eye roll, “elite” and wasn’t worth it.


and anyone who doesn’t want to believe that this “fuuuuukk you, get mine” attitude. With either deliberate or willful ignorance of the effects on the sport long term are decirving themselves.

 

 

and yes all relate directly to the race issue in different ways. And all of this is before the straight racist, both unintentionally and intentionally come into play.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think you're a bit off base as 30% of the 2019 men's freestyle world team was black.   There are plenty of "those other people" that are already elite.

But anyway, seems like you're rambling a bit here.   So basically you're blaming the current "state of wrestling" for not growing wrestling in other areas?   Obviously those areas could use some help in growing the sport (as BTS seems to be doing a decent job of doing), but to be fair, the people in those areas also need to want to participate.

Jordan Burroughs even admits that in his town (which was mostly blue-collar, maybe towards the lower end of middle class but not really poor or anything IMO), wrestling wasn't "cool" and most of his friends played football or basketball - https://www.jordanburroughs.com/blog/beat-the-streets-nyc-the-story-behind-the-event

Maybe this is a generalization, but I think the biggest issue with growing wrestling with the black population is that it's the same season as baskeball.   Maybe covid will turn wrestling into a spring semester sport at least at the college level.  But I tihnk if it wasn't competing with basketball for athletes, that would greatly help participation amoung black students.

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13 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think you're a bit off base as 30% of the 2019 men's freestyle world team was black.   There are plenty of "those other people" that are already elite.

But anyway, seems like you're rambling a bit here.   So basically you're blaming the current "state of wrestling" for not growing wrestling in other areas?   Obviously those areas could use some help in growing the sport (as BTS seems to be doing a decent job of doing), but to be fair, the people in those areas also need to want to participate.

Jordan Burroughs even admits that in his town (which was mostly blue-collar, maybe towards the lower end of middle class but not really poor or anything IMO), wrestling wasn't "cool" and most of his friends played football or basketball - https://www.jordanburroughs.com/blog/beat-the-streets-nyc-the-story-behind-the-event

Maybe this is a generalization, but I think the biggest issue with growing wrestling with the black population is that it's the same season as baskeball.   Maybe covid will turn wrestling into a spring semester sport at least at the college level.  But I tihnk if it wasn't competing with basketball for athletes, that would greatly help participation amoung black students.

You actually helped make my point whether you realize it or not. Especially because them “wanting To” is massively affected by how the sport presents itself. Not just to kids, but to parents. And “wrestling not being cool” is kinda exactly the point I’m making..

Additionally. Basketball teams are not that big. Plenty of schools of less than a thousand can fill 9th through varsity and that still fill wrestling teams. The basketball excuse is a tired one. That doesn’t even include the kids whose body type precludes making even the local yokel jv team.
 

I can tell you from extensive personal experience that basketball is NOT the number one reason, not even top 3 a lot of the time. The top reasons almost invariably involve perception about the sport because of how it is presented and marketed to the outside world. Almost all of these perceptions are wrestling’s own fault and a result of stupidity not cause “well they just don’t want to”

A lot of it comes from most in wrestling not understanding some basic facts, or willful deliberate ignorance. More specifically, not actually accepting and understanding that the people haven’t wrestled, they most of the time have no clue about it. And have a complete outsiders look. 


Yes I’m aware of the world team. You also are ignoring other points like the type of school and background  most Elite wrestlers come from. It 

 

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30 minutes ago, jp157 said:

You actually helped make my point whether you realize it or not. Especially because them “wanting To” is massively affected by how the sport presents itself. Not just to kids, but to parents. And “wrestling not being cool” is kinda exactly the point I’m making..

Additionally. Basketball teams are not that big. Plenty of schools of less than a thousand can fill 9th through varsity and that still fill wrestling teams. The basketball excuse is a tired one. That doesn’t even include the kids whose body type precludes making even the local yokel jv team.
 

I can tell you from extensive personal experience that basketball is NOT the number one reason, not even top 3 a lot of the time. The top reasons almost invariably involve perception about the sport because of how it is presented and marketed to the outside world. Almost all of these perceptions are wrestling’s own fault and a result of stupidity not cause “well they just don’t want to”

A lot of it comes from most in wrestling not understanding some basic facts, or willful deliberate ignorance. More specifically, not actually accepting and understanding that the people haven’t wrestled, they most of the time have no clue about it. And have a complete outsiders look. 


Yes I’m aware of the world team. You also are ignoring other points like the type of school and background  most Elite wrestlers come from. It 

 

You keep speaking in vague generalities.   Can you give some specifics?  What are your top 3 reasons?  I have some guesses but I think most of the ones I'm thinking of (such as singlets, skin diseases, and weight cutting) are not specific to gaining more black participants, and are just barriers to gaining any more participants at all.

...Ok fine, you can probably get some of the kids that don't make the basketball team.    But you usually don't get the ones that could make the basketball team if they want.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, jp157 said:

You actually helped make my point whether you realize it or not. Especially because them “wanting To” is massively affected by how the sport presents itself. Not just to kids, but to parents. And “wrestling not being cool” is kinda exactly the point I’m making..

Additionally. Basketball teams are not that big. Plenty of schools of less than a thousand can fill 9th through varsity and that still fill wrestling teams. The basketball excuse is a tired one. That doesn’t even include the kids whose body type precludes making even the local yokel jv team.
 

I can tell you from extensive personal experience that basketball is NOT the number one reason, not even top 3 a lot of the time. The top reasons almost invariably involve perception about the sport because of how it is presented and marketed to the outside world. Almost all of these perceptions are wrestling’s own fault and a result of stupidity not cause “well they just don’t want to”

A lot of it comes from most in wrestling not understanding some basic facts, or willful deliberate ignorance. More specifically, not actually accepting and understanding that the people haven’t wrestled, they most of the time have no clue about it. And have a complete outsiders look. 


Yes I’m aware of the world team. You also are ignoring other points like the type of school and background  most Elite wrestlers come from. It 

 

Can you put a finer point on 'Elite" wrestler? What type of background do most elite wrestlers come from?  Seems middle class/lower middle class to me. 

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4 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

You keep speaking in vague generalities.   Can you give some specifics?  What are your top 3 reasons?  I have some guesses but I think most of the ones I'm thinking of (such as singlets, skin diseases, and weight cutting) are not specific to gaining more black participants, and are just barriers to gaining any more participants at all.

...Ok fine, you can probably get some of the kids that don't make the basketball team.    But you usually don't get the ones that could make the basketball team if they want.

 

 

All of those things are magnified when trying to spread the sport outside it’s usual demographic. Add in wrestling’s obsession with being the angry small man in the room. So it comes across as a psychotic sport that will get kids hurt, unnecessarily long tournaments due to poor management. 

Now I understand many of these points can be quibbled, nit picked, and yada yada till the cows come home. I’ve also been around this on both ends of the spectrum on this issue. It’s based off experience. Looking through sport data, general trends, and a lot of experience growing the sport in non traditional areas. 
 

Shrug, at this point. The sport is shrinking. Quite frankly even if you want to say I’m making it up. It doesn’t change how the sport is perceived by most of that population. Wrestling has to stop saying and doing the same ole things and hoping for a different result. And stop acting like we are owed anything 

 

 


 

 

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Can you put a finer point on 'Elite" wrestler? What type of background do most elite wrestlers come from?  Seems middle class/lower middle class to me. 

The trend has been towards upper middle class. 

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9 hours ago, jp157 said:

All of those things are magnified when trying to spread the sport outside it’s usual demographic. Add in wrestling’s obsession with being the angry small man in the room. So it comes across as a psychotic sport that will get kids hurt, unnecessarily long tournaments due to poor management. 

Now I understand many of these points can be quibbled, nit picked, and yada yada till the cows come home. I’ve also been around this on both ends of the spectrum on this issue. It’s based off experience. Looking through sport data, general trends, and a lot of experience growing the sport in non traditional areas. 
 

Shrug, at this point. The sport is shrinking. Quite frankly even if you want to say I’m making it up. It doesn’t change how the sport is perceived by most of that population. Wrestling has to stop saying and doing the same ole things and hoping for a different result. And stop acting like we are owed anything 
 

But again, some of those arguments are not specific to the any particular population.  And I disagree that wrestling is doing the same old things.     In the past few years you have had the expansion of two-piece uniforms, the modification of the hair rule (of course that was reactionary but the result is still good in terms of not hurting participation), as well as the continued growth in girl's wrestling.   You also continue to have many of the top MMA fighters coming from wrestling backgrounds and praising wrestling as why they are successful.   Sure more can be done, but it's a start.

Although I guess your point is because (boy's) wrestling is shrinking, they should be looking more to populations that have typically not participated as much in the past?

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6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

But again, some of those arguments are not specific to the any particular population.  And I disagree that wrestling is doing the same old things.     In the past few years you have had the expansion of two-piece uniforms, the modification of the hair rule (of course that was reactionary but the result is still good in terms of not hurting participation), as well as the continued growth in girl's wrestling.   You also continue to have many of the top MMA fighters coming from wrestling backgrounds and praising wrestling as why they are successful.   Sure more can be done, but it's a start.

Although I guess your point is because (boy's) wrestling is shrinking, they should be looking more to populations that have typically not participated as much in the past?

Do you understand how hard many more than is comfortable to admit even with those changes went, kicking and screaming, and still grumble about it?

Im not saying they should be looking. I’m saying they’re 20 years too late in finally implementing much of this stuff and actually expanding outside the traditional avenues. It’s not just the micro level stuff. It’s the macro.

I had a very enlightening conversation once with a football coach from the south. He had coached in college. Ran his H.S. team like a division I college team. And had been around a lot of wrestling. Talked about things like how wrestling is really perceived, how small it really is compared to bb or fb. How it’s honestly quite amusing when many wrestling coaches whine about always getting screwed because we didn’t do something nearly on the scale those big sports did. We didn’t and don’t put our people into admin or into athletic commissions. Not on the scale of and not for as long as they have. Or how he couldn’t understand wrestling coaches who whined about not knowing how they would pay for a girls coaching stipend. He asked if we were so collectively stupid that we couldn’t understand that we could begin to use Title IX in our favor now.

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24 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Do you understand how hard many more than is comfortable to admit even with those changes went, kicking and screaming, and still grumble about it?

Im not saying they should be looking. I’m saying they’re 20 years too late in finally implementing much of this stuff and actually expanding outside the traditional avenues. It’s not just the micro level stuff. It’s the macro.

I had a very enlightening conversation once with a football coach from the south. He had coached in college. Ran his H.S. team like a division I college team. And had been around a lot of wrestling. Talked about things like how wrestling is really perceived, how small it really is compared to bb or fb. How it’s honestly quite amusing when many wrestling coaches whine about always getting screwed because we didn’t do something nearly on the scale those big sports did. We didn’t and don’t put our people into admin or into athletic commissions. Not on the scale of and not for as long as they have. Or how he couldn’t understand wrestling coaches who whined about not knowing how they would pay for a girls coaching stipend. He asked if we were so collectively stupid that we couldn’t understand that we could begin to use Title IX in our favor now.

And there we have it, the gospel according to third-hand information from a football coach from The South.

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36 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Do you understand how hard many more than is comfortable to admit even with those changes went, kicking and screaming, and still grumble about it?

Im not saying they should be looking. I’m saying they’re 20 years too late in finally implementing much of this stuff and actually expanding outside the traditional avenues. It’s not just the micro level stuff. It’s the macro.

I had a very enlightening conversation once with a football coach from the south. He had coached in college. Ran his H.S. team like a division I college team. And had been around a lot of wrestling. Talked about things like how wrestling is really perceived, how small it really is compared to bb or fb. How it’s honestly quite amusing when many wrestling coaches whine about always getting screwed because we didn’t do something nearly on the scale those big sports did. We didn’t and don’t put our people into admin or into athletic commissions. Not on the scale of and not for as long as they have. Or how he couldn’t understand wrestling coaches who whined about not knowing how they would pay for a girls coaching stipend. He asked if we were so collectively stupid that we couldn’t understand that we could begin to use Title IX in our favor now.

No one argued with changing the hair rule after "the incident."

I don't think there was much pushback on at least allowing two piece uniforms at the HS level and below.   The biggest issue seems to be cost, which of course is an issue with lower income schools.

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31 minutes ago, jchapman said:

And there we have it, the gospel according to third-hand information from a football coach from The South.

Shrug. It was an enlightening conversation. React as you will

Edit: though the gospel comment while low key is a little much.

Edited by jp157

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20 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

No one argued with changing the hair rule after "the incident."

I don't think there was much pushback on at least allowing two piece uniforms at the HS level and below.   The biggest issue seems to be cost, which of course is an issue with lower income schools.

Plenty did. And/or rolled their eyes like it wasn’t actually a good thing. Or now they say Disingenuous things like “why hasn’t participation magically increased already, I thought the 2pieve was to supposed to do that”

I’m not saying any of this flippantly or because I’ve only encountered one person say such things. I’ve encountered and seen this sort of thing as a competitor coach and on here. I knew that daring to utter such things would get dragged down into people quibbling over minutiae instead of looking at the actual overall point. I knew the reaction I would get from some, using the example I just did. I know I could be more tactful.

But with the Covid and the ramifications, I think anything but brutally honest looks at the sport, including race and how it’s presented, are pointless 

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