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Iowa Hawkeyes -- Culture with black athletes

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Who is the last African American wrestler in the starting lineup for Iowa?  Montrell Marion?

The Hawks haven't had a big-time African American recruit in quite some time.

Edited by ShakaAloha

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I remembering hearing the story about a younger Iowa fan going up to Mark Hall and saying "you suck" from the discussion with our black brethren of wrestling about a month or two ago.   I don't think saying you suck is racist.  If he just said it to him, I still don't think it is.   Bottom line we don't know much about the twerp who said it.  Could have been another fan betting him 10 bucks to go get in his head before a match.   At WTT when those were in Iowa City I heard a lot of chirpping in the crowd that was very passionate for Iowa guys.   When they were wrestling black guys you did tend to hear a little bit of a different sound.  It was beyond the stalling calls synonymous with Iowa.   Most were still stalling....but a few bone heads went deeper in the sand and went the route of the "chocolate melts"   adage which was also addressed on that zoom meeting.   But,  just like anywhere......10 knuckleheads being punks can make 1000 passionate fans look like assholes.   I know Iowa and OSU have had duals where fans have turned in other fans for stupidity and having $*!& for brains...and security is usually very quick to respond and toss the drunk bastards out of the crowd.   Every school has some morons of some shade,   some are just better at shutting the hell up and not jeopardizing their future, and others...just do stupid actions to make up for their words. 

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1 hour ago, IronChef said:

There is no reason to connect the article on ESPN to the wrestling team at Iowa. The original poster wants to discuss the “possible implication to wrestling” when there is no implication that wrestling is involved. It was invented out of whole cloth by the original poster and then “supported” by anecdotal evidence about the makeup of the team. Class goes on to wonder about the makeup of the other Big Ten teams before claiming to be unable to click on some rosters and figure it out.

There is a way to have a conversation about systemic racism in college sports and the experience of black athletes on predominantly white campuses, but using an article about a football team as a flimsy way to go after a wrestling team at the same school isn’t it. 

The article speaks to the entire athletic department and so I am sure questions will be asked regarding each sport's handling of the black athlete experience.  Football is under the gun per se but the article refers to the athletic department as whole.  Perhaps a poor choice of words being "unable" to look at rosters but rather I just didn't have time during the work day, but I do now.  Of the 14 B1G teams Iowa ranks 13th in black athletes on the roster (7 of the rosters are 19-20 and another 7 were updated to 20-21 including Iowa's). 

Iowa has just one black wrestler listed, true freshman Charles Matthews.  By quick review to see if this was an aberration their totals on the last 5 rosters are 1, 1, 1, 1 and 2.  (Jeremiah Moody being the sole individual 3 times and then also Faraan Brantley 5 years ago being a second).

It is very possible that Jeremiah Moody (3rd in state, 3rd in cadets @ Fargo), Faraan Brantley and Charles Matthews are not scholarship athletes.  Meanwhile during the same 5 year period taking the top 5 P4P from Flo senior recruits 28% of them are black (Bartlett, Kerk, Gable, Teemer, Carr, Hall and Red).  

B1G rosters = 14 

Iowa rank = 13th with 1  (Wisconsin has 0!)

Average = 3.3

Are there conclusions to be drawn from this?  I don't know, but looking at the activity of top P4P recruits and the actual roster of IA were two quick data points and they both tell a bit of a story and that is that the IA team doesn't spend their scholarship $s recently on black athletes, despite the fact that they are a significant part of the upper echelon of our sport.  Why is that?  (Some possibilities = better guys on the roster, recruit in love with another school, those wrestlers weren't interested -why-, those wrestlers weren't targets -why-, target a 'certain' type of wrestler that fits the mold).

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You need to stop using P4P recruiting success as some sort of proxy for racism. There aren't that many of those guys. Iowa only had three in the past five years. Why isn't Iowa trying harder to recruit the best guys? They must be biased against high level wrestlers.

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55 minutes ago, Class said:

The article speaks to the entire athletic department and so I am sure questions will be asked regarding each sport's handling of the black athlete experience.  Football is under the gun per se but the article refers to the athletic department as whole.  Perhaps a poor choice of words being "unable" to look at rosters but rather I just didn't have time during the work day, but I do now.  Of the 14 B1G teams Iowa ranks 13th in black athletes on the roster (7 of the rosters are 19-20 and another 7 were updated to 20-21 including Iowa's). 

Iowa has just one black wrestler listed, true freshman Charles Matthews.  By quick review to see if this was an aberration their totals on the last 5 rosters are 1, 1, 1, 1 and 2.  (Jeremiah Moody being the sole individual 3 times and then also Faraan Brantley 5 years ago being a second).

It is very possible that Jeremiah Moody (3rd in state, 3rd in cadets @ Fargo), Faraan Brantley and Charles Matthews are not scholarship athletes.  Meanwhile during the same 5 year period taking the top 5 P4P from Flo senior recruits 28% of them are black (Bartlett, Kerk, Gable, Teemer, Carr, Hall and Red).  

B1G rosters = 14 

Iowa rank = 13th with 1  (Wisconsin has 0!)

Average = 3.3

Are there conclusions to be drawn from this?  I don't know, but looking at the activity of top P4P recruits and the actual roster of IA were two quick data points and they both tell a bit of a story and that is that the IA team doesn't spend their scholarship $s recently on black athletes, despite the fact that they are a significant part of the upper echelon of our sport.  Why is that?  (Some possibilities = better guys on the roster, recruit in love with another school, those wrestlers weren't interested -why-, those wrestlers weren't targets -why-, target a 'certain' type of wrestler that fits the mold).

Wisconsin is so racist, they hosted Bobby Douglas appreciation night this season.

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Wisconsin should be represented by black athletes.  Their athletic department is also not under a self imposed review of inequities in the black athlete experience.

The top P4P is only to illustrate that there are certainly countless top wrestlers that Iowa should be looking at that are black.  It isn't that they haven't gotten a top 5 P4P that is black, they haven't gotten ANY that are scholarship worthy in 5 years.  Top 5, top 50, top 150 even.

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1 hour ago, Class said:

Wisconsin should be represented by black athletes.  Their athletic department is also not under a self imposed review of inequities in the black athlete experience.

The top P4P is only to illustrate that there are certainly countless top wrestlers that Iowa should be looking at that are black.  It isn't that they haven't gotten a top 5 P4P that is black, they haven't gotten ANY that are scholarship worthy in 5 years.  Top 5, top 50, top 150 even.

Who should Wisconsin have on their team?  They have 25 roster spots, and last year 14 were native Wisconsinites.  This is because in-state tuition is so much cheaper than out-of-state.  Have you ever been to the WIAA state tournament?  How many black athletes are in the finals?  The last black wrestler from a Wisconsin high school who was a B1G caliber wrestler was Beau Breske.  Guess what?  He was on Wisconsin’s roster.  If they are expected to recruit several black wrestlers from outside the state, they are severely limiting their pool of athletes for those other 11 roster spots.

Edited by jchapman

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1 hour ago, jchapman said:

Who should Wisconsin have on their team?  They have 25 roster spots, and last year 14 were native Wisconsinites.  This is because in-state tuition is so much cheaper than out-of-state.  Have you ever been to the WIAA state tournament?  How many black athletes are in the finals?  The last black wrestler from a Wisconsin high school who was a B1G caliber wrestler was Beau Breske.  Guess what?  He was on Wisconsin’s roster.  If they are expected to recruit several black wrestlers from outside the state, they are severely limiting their pool of athletes for those other 11 roster spots.

You missed Wyoming freshman Stephen Buchanan. 

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11 hours ago, FriendlyCamper said:

I'm not saying the environment in the wrestling room in Iowa is racist or anything along those lines. They recruit the best and Brands and co. give everyone a fair shot at the lineup. But, outside the room and athletic facilities,  maybe the fan base and state of Iowa is a different story. In the USA podcast that featured black athletes and their experience with racism both Gadson and Mark Hall mentioned their encounters they remember vividly both happened in Iowa. 

 

 

 

https://themat.tv/interviews/222297-kyven-gadson-mark-hall-and-james-green-on-racism-they-have-experienced-in-a-wrestling-setting

The only thing Marc hall said was they called him a bi**h when he was warming up and didn’t say it to anyone else, I hardly call that racism , and it worked bc he admitted he got to amped up and gassed out 

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5 hours ago, Class said:

The article speaks to the entire athletic department and so I am sure questions will be asked regarding each sport's handling of the black athlete experience.  Football is under the gun per se but the article refers to the athletic department as whole.  Perhaps a poor choice of words being "unable" to look at rosters but rather I just didn't have time during the work day, but I do now.  Of the 14 B1G teams Iowa ranks 13th in black athletes on the roster (7 of the rosters are 19-20 and another 7 were updated to 20-21 including Iowa's). 

Iowa has just one black wrestler listed, true freshman Charles Matthews.  By quick review to see if this was an aberration their totals on the last 5 rosters are 1, 1, 1, 1 and 2.  (Jeremiah Moody being the sole individual 3 times and then also Faraan Brantley 5 years ago being a second).

It is very possible that Jeremiah Moody (3rd in state, 3rd in cadets @ Fargo), Faraan Brantley and Charles Matthews are not scholarship athletes.  Meanwhile during the same 5 year period taking the top 5 P4P from Flo senior recruits 28% of them are black (Bartlett, Kerk, Gable, Teemer, Carr, Hall and Red).  

B1G rosters = 14 

Iowa rank = 13th with 1  (Wisconsin has 0!)

Average = 3.3

Are there conclusions to be drawn from this?  I don't know, but looking at the activity of top P4P recruits and the actual roster of IA were two quick data points and they both tell a bit of a story and that is that the IA team doesn't spend their scholarship $s recently on black athletes, despite the fact that they are a significant part of the upper echelon of our sport.  Why is that?  (Some possibilities = better guys on the roster, recruit in love with another school, those wrestlers weren't interested -why-, those wrestlers weren't targets -why-, target a 'certain' type of wrestler that fits the mold).

You can't "spend your money" on athletes if they won't take it.  Iowa has recruited some of those guy, and they were (as I posted earlier) in Gable's top 4.  You can't make them sign with you.  As was also pointed out, it's not like Iowa is overflowing with overall P4P guys either, so are they biased against having great wrestlers on their team?  Of the current prospective roster for next year, they have, I believe 4 top 10 P4P guys on the roster:  Lee, Marinelli, Kemerer, and Warner.

You're also ignoring the high representation of Hispanic wrestlers on the team.

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5 hours ago, VakAttack said:

You can't "spend your money" on athletes if they won't take it.  Iowa has recruited some of those guy, and they were (as I posted earlier) in Gable's top 4.  You can't make them sign with you.  As was also pointed out, it's not like Iowa is overflowing with overall P4P guys either, so are they biased against having great wrestlers on their team?  Of the current prospective roster for next year, they have, I believe 4 top 10 P4P guys on the roster:  Lee, Marinelli, Kemerer, and Warner.

You're also ignoring the high representation of Hispanic wrestlers on the team.

Great point on it being the WRESTLERS choice.  People seem to forget that.
I wonder if there are any comments from Joe or TJ Williams on the subject, though that was under the Gable.

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11 hours ago, Class said:

 

Are there conclusions to be drawn from this?  I don't know, but looking at the activity of top P4P recruits and the actual roster of IA were two quick data points and they both tell a bit of a story and that is that the IA team doesn't spend their scholarship $s recently on black athletes, despite the fact that they are a significant part of the upper echelon of our sport.  Why is that?  (Some possibilities = better guys on the roster, recruit in love with another school, those wrestlers weren't interested -why-, those wrestlers weren't targets -why-, target a 'certain' type of wrestler that fits the mold).

Quick story, 7’2” George Leach, IU Basketball player for Bob Knight, from North Carolina, recruited by all the major schools, graduated 2002 from School of business.  
He was a frequent visitor at my house with other team members during his 4 years on the team. During casual conversation while discussing recruitment he did mention Iowa, and the visit he had with the coaches. And this stuck in my mind every since, me being an old white guy, he said Iowa has a tough time getting black guys on their teams because there aren’t any black people there, town and campus. He said he liked to be around black people.  His reason to dismiss the schools offer.  
I had to think hard about that ,which I would not have given a second thought to, but it came from a black mans perspective. 
So you have think about that as a reason also. 

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7 hours ago, VakAttack said:

You can't "spend your money" on athletes if they won't take it.  Iowa has recruited some of those guy, and they were (as I posted earlier) in Gable's top 4.  You can't make them sign with you.  As was also pointed out, it's not like Iowa is overflowing with overall P4P guys either, so are they biased against having great wrestlers on their team?  Of the current prospective roster for next year, they have, I believe 4 top 10 P4P guys on the roster:  Lee, Marinelli, Kemerer, and Warner.

You're also ignoring the high representation of Hispanic wrestlers on the team.

I don't understand this take.   Obviously wrestlers, not only the best ones, get scholarship offers from different schools.  If a certain group all choose other offers, it is not for nothing. So, it begs the question why? Are they visiting Iowa City during the process?  It is odd.  

I don't see a high representation of Latinos either. 

Edited by Plasmodium

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1 hour ago, southend said:

Quick story, 7’2” George Leach, IU Basketball player for Bob Knight, from North Carolina, recruited by all the major schools, graduated 2002 from School of business.  
He was a frequent visitor at my house with other team members during his 4 years on the team. During casual conversation while discussing recruitment he did mention Iowa, and the visit he had with the coaches. And this stuck in my mind every since, me being an old white guy, he said Iowa has a tough time getting black guys on their teams because there aren’t any black people there, town and campus. He said he liked to be around black people.  His reason to dismiss the schools offer.  
I had to think hard about that ,which I would not have given a second thought to, but it came from a black mans perspective. 
So you have think about that as a reason also. 

Southend, That same story can be told hundreds of times by athletes that went to visit or attended schools in the Intermountain West i.e. Idaho, Idaho State, Utah, Utah State, & BYU. I can imagine that you could include the Montana and Wyoming schools in there as well.  

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There is also the Idea that schools need to successfully recruit their backyard...and everyone’s backyard is different. Having spent a lot of time in Montana, one of the best things that could happen would be to have more Native American kids involved in wrestling. Most of the reservation schools don’t offer wrestling.  It would be good for the sport but even more so for those kids. 

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On 7/27/2020 at 9:57 AM, Class said:

The front page of ESPN has lit the firestorm,  just click on it the page you can't miss it.

Can't we just be big boys and be OK with front page national news being discussed as a possible implication to wrestling as well?  Or is there some hope with the wrestling program at Iowa that they won't or shouldn't be looked at or talked about laterally from Doyle and Ferentz.

Clearly Doyle was and is a bit of a patsy for the larger department but it is well known he has worked with the wrestling program throughout his tenure.

Is it not OK to discuss that here?  Hoping it will just go away?

lets be big boys and stop assuming that everything is racist

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15 hours ago, VakAttack said:

You can't "spend your money" on athletes if they won't take it.  Iowa has recruited some of those guy, and they were (as I posted earlier) in Gable's top 4.  You can't make them sign with you.  As was also pointed out, it's not like Iowa is overflowing with overall P4P guys either, so are they biased against having great wrestlers on their team?  Of the current prospective roster for next year, they have, I believe 4 top 10 P4P guys on the roster:  Lee, Marinelli, Kemerer, and Warner.

You're also ignoring the high representation of Hispanic wrestlers on the team.

Iowa has 31 wrestlers on their team, two of whom are Hispanic.  I wouldn't exactly call that "high representation."

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7 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

Iowa has 31 wrestlers on their team, two of whom are Hispanic.  I wouldn't exactly call that "high representation."

Not for lack of trying.  They've got Jesse Ybarra coming in next year along with Bretti Reyna.  Drake Ayala is coming in, too.  They were in on Roman Bravo-Young and Brevin Balmaceda.  They're in on Jesse Mendez and Cael Valencia right now.  Jason Renteria was on the roster and only left after some personal issues.  Tony Ramos is obviously historically one.  Justin Mejia bounced around a bunch of places, but wanted Iowa before any of them.  Perez Perez somewhat infamously hung around on the roster as a lower weight fill in for years.

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Wrestling teams are a very small sample of a larger population if one is comparing the team to the broader population of a given state, city, etc. There is no statistical reason to presume that such small samples "should" reflect the broader population. If wrestling teams were to include 100 members, then you might have something to talk about, but as it stands...I think Class is just trying to stir the pot during a slow time on the forums.

As for the veiled implication that some universities, wrestling programs, coaches, etc., are (un)intentionally biased and racist, there are probably some that are - as individuals from all walks of life are likely to hold some biases. Sometimes those biases are against people of color, sometime they are against white people, sometimes against women, sometimes they are against old people, etc. Biases sometimes have a basis in fact, many times they don't. The "evil" in such biases is when a person acts on those biases by discrimination in how you treat others. Sometimes those biases and discrimination are institutionalized (and that is the big danger, IMO).

I think it is a huge stretch for Class to suggest that specific wrestling programs have institutionalized racism. Certainly, it may exist, but the cited basis for that assumption (i.e., the lack of people of color in some programs) lacks statistical merit. Rather, it is just someone tilting at windmills.

Consider a reversal of roles - many basketball teams carry a disproportionate number of people of color on their roster (at least disproportionate if one uses the national percentages of racial composition). Using Classic's standards, there is discrimination at work and those teams should recruit more white players., right? And to those of you who will cite a program such as Wisconsin evidence of discrimination because they have no person of color on the roster (just this last year), would putting one person of color on the team really change anything? Would the evident alleged racism suddenly be gone? Quite honestly, basing such conclusions on the presence of one (or even a few) people of color in a single year smacks of tokenism - which really solves nothing and simply perpetuates the underlying issue.

And too, the composition of a given team is as much about the wrestlers' preferences as it is about a team and/or a school; its a talent-marketplace and both sides are making purchasing decisions, not just the program.

So, thank you Class, for providing a topic worth at least two pages of a dog chasing its tail in these slow times on the forum. But I find it very ironic that you first raise this veiled allegation of discrimination in the same breath as you reveal yourself to possess similar biases with respect to white Midwestern males who like to hunt. That was particularly delicious.

Edited by npope

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On 7/27/2020 at 6:19 PM, Class said:

The article speaks to the entire athletic department and so I am sure questions will be asked regarding each sport's handling of the black athlete experience.  Football is under the gun per se but the article refers to the athletic department as whole.  Perhaps a poor choice of words being "unable" to look at rosters but rather I just didn't have time during the work day, but I do now.  Of the 14 B1G teams Iowa ranks 13th in black athletes on the roster (7 of the rosters are 19-20 and another 7 were updated to 20-21 including Iowa's). 

Iowa has just one black wrestler listed, true freshman Charles Matthews.  By quick review to see if this was an aberration their totals on the last 5 rosters are 1, 1, 1, 1 and 2.  (Jeremiah Moody being the sole individual 3 times and then also Faraan Brantley 5 years ago being a second).

It is very possible that Jeremiah Moody (3rd in state, 3rd in cadets @ Fargo), Faraan Brantley and Charles Matthews are not scholarship athletes.  Meanwhile during the same 5 year period taking the top 5 P4P from Flo senior recruits 28% of them are black (Bartlett, Kerk, Gable, Teemer, Carr, Hall and Red).  

B1G rosters = 14 

Iowa rank = 13th with 1  (Wisconsin has 0!)

Average = 3.3

Are there conclusions to be drawn from this?  I don't know, but looking at the activity of top P4P recruits and the actual roster of IA were two quick data points and they both tell a bit of a story and that is that the IA team doesn't spend their scholarship $s recently on black athletes, despite the fact that they are a significant part of the upper echelon of our sport.  Why is that?  (Some possibilities = better guys on the roster, recruit in love with another school, those wrestlers weren't interested -why-, those wrestlers weren't targets -why-, target a 'certain' type of wrestler that fits the mold).

Well you're wrong. Aside from Aaron Brooks, I can't recall a top black recruit Iowa didn't go after. And, they offered money. You see what you want to see.

 

 

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1. Iowa football issues have nothing to do with wrestling. Iowa wrestling has a small number of black participants, but so does every program.

2. Why does wrestling have so few black participants? I don't know. Some people say because it's a rural sport...but it's not. It's in every big city in the midwest and NE.

3. Unrelated, but Jeremiah Moody is great - watched him wrestle off a couple years ago and he's got some stuff. Would love to see him compete, but for some reason guys who would could be starters (or even AAs!) elsewhere seem to be content as backups in the Iowa room. I guess it worked out for Dan Dennis.

Edited by Fletcher

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