The Fix/Suriano Stalemate Call

[1032004 931]

Obviously the headgear non-call got more attention, but this was probably almost as controversial.

Yesterday Willie called it an "all-time horrific call."  I personally thought it was a good call.

 

What say you now 1.5 years later?

[Lurker 1,475]

I agree

 

[Drake_Mallard 191]

33 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Obviously the headgear non-call got more attention, but this was probably almost as controversial.

Yesterday Willie called it an "all-time horrific call."  I personally thought it was a good call.

 

What say you now 1.5 years later?

What bothers me is that it hasnt been and wont be called like that 9 out of 10 times. 

[MSU158 1,611]

If you throw legs, you MUST be prepared for stalemate or even stalling calls.  To many officials, this often looks like a "hanging on" or "time killer" position.  I personally think the stalemate was warranted.  From roughly 16 seconds down to 9 seconds, there was no marked improvement by either wrestler and most of the time they were stagnant with Suriano posted on the top of his head and almost fully extended in a tripod position.

[Fletcher 763]

29 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

What bothers me is that it hasnt been and wont be called like that 9 out of 10 times. 

This. If it were the first period, no way do they call stalemate...because there's lots of pinning combinations that come out of that position. It's not the same thing as grabbing an ankle or dropping to a leg.

[bnwtwg 621]

Fix was hosed. Folkstyle allows for the legs to be thrown in and ride out, otherwise there would not be that little thing called "riding time."

[1032004 931]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I agree

 

with what?

[Lurker 1,475]

Just now, 1032004 said:

with what?

I like the call.  I agree that it may be called differently in overtime, but I don't have a problem with that.  I prefer it be called like that.

[Drake_Mallard 191]

14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I like the call.  I agree that it may be called differently in overtime, but I don't have a problem with that.  I prefer it be called like that.

Which is fine with me, but then it needs to be outlined in the rules that OT will get that treatment. 

[jp157 174]

I prefer first time stalemate second tome stalling. Period. 
 

I also think it’s top mans responsibility to return or cut him irregardless of what bottom is doing

[1032004 931]

1 hour ago, Drake_Mallard said:

What bothers me is that it hasnt been and wont be called like that 9 out of 10 times. 

I mean there was basically no movement from either guy for 5 seconds.  I've seen less than that called a stalemate in regulation

[WRfan1 144]

Are there different rules depending on the situation?  Clearly not in the rule book, but many are okay with the existence of unwritten "situational" rules.

By the letter of the law, there is no way that position was a stalemate, there were both still moving, and Fix's right leg wasn't even in, he only had a single boot in.  Situationally, its a much closer call, but I still don't agree with it. Suriano wasn't doing much at the moment it was called. 

I still don't think its near as bad as the Oliver/Steiber match, which defied just about every understanding of a takedown and hip control that I'd seen in 35 years of wrestling up to that point.  

Not an Okie State fan either, btw.  Worst call of the tourney (or lead-up to) was on Smith wrestling his kid instead of letting Rogers wrestle (17-2 when he was pulled) - cost OSU an All-American, so I wasn't crying for them.

Edited August 26, 2020 by WRfan1

[Lurker 1,475]

22 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

Which is fine with me, but then it needs to be outlined in the rules that OT will get that treatment. 

I mean, I guess.  But if we can figure it out that its going to be called a little more tight in overtime, surely the coaches and athletes can.  Kind of like NBA officials at the end of the playoff game....you just know they're going to let them play a little more.

[hammerlockthree 2,083]

Insanely bad call.

I can see a quick call if Suriano was flat, but he could definitely wrestle out of that position. 

[Plasmodium 1,677]

Legs in with no hint of a turn or escape being allowed for over a minute is so common it is cliche.   That being said - this is the right call and the former is the wrong one.

[uncle bernard 612]

1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

Insanely bad call.

I can see a quick call if Suriano was flat, but he could definitely wrestle out of that position. 

This is the thing that stands out to me. I've never seen a stalemate called there when the bottom man isn't flat.

Suriano still had the ability to work and I actually think he wasn't far from being in good position. You can see in the video that he wasn't frozen because he couldn't move, but that he's instead focusing on freeing his wrist while posting on his head. Once that wrist is freed, Fix isn't in great position. I think the last 5-6 seconds could have been a wild flurry as Fix tries to hang on. I think he probably would have been saved by the bell if it continued.

[uncle bernard 612]

1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Legs in with no hint of a turn or escape being allowed for over a minute is so common it is cliche.   That being said - this is the right call and the former is the wrong one.

I agree with this take in general 100%, but Suriano had not been flattened out and in the preceding 10 seconds Suriano had actually improved his position pretty well. I think he was about 12-15 seconds away from clearing the position when the stalemate was called.

[hammerlockthree 2,083]

14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

This is the thing that stands out to me. I've never seen a stalemate called there when the bottom man isn't flat.

Suriano still had the ability to work and I actually think he wasn't far from being in good position. You can see in the video that he wasn't frozen because he couldn't move, but that he's instead focusing on freeing his wrist while posting on his head. Once that wrist is freed, Fix isn't in great position. I think the last 5-6 seconds could have been a wild flurry as Fix tries to hang on. I think he probably would have been saved by the bell if it continued.

Another observation, there are different types of bad calls. The worst is the ref who just wants to change the outcome of the match, not even from corruption but just the desire to be important. Another bad one the ref who is in a big rush to make super obscure calls. Ignorance is actually the least frustrating.

This bad call was fueled by the refs foreknowledge of what was gonna happen. He had clearly decided that if the legs went in he wasn't gonna let Fix just sit on him, so that legs go in, he fails to notice all the wrestling thats happening and he just confirms his prior assumption and made the call. I'm not saying he was out to get anyone, but I think Fix's prior success there worked against him. 

[Drake_Mallard 191]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I mean, I guess.  But if we can figure it out that its going to be called a little more tight in overtime, surely the coaches and athletes can.  Kind of like NBA officials at the end of the playoff game....you just know they're going to let them play a little more.

Ok, maybe you cant put it in writing. However, the difference is that there is an understanding in the NBA it will be called that way across the board. Its not really a surprise to anyone. In this situation, no one knows what you are going to get. There is no consistency. Athletes shouldnt be expected to deal with a rule set that changes on a whim; especially when one call changes the entire outcome of the match. 

What are referees being told to do in this situation? If everyone believes you need to be way more liberal with stalemate calls when I guy throws in legs, its not a problem, but I think there are plenty of refs who never got that message.

[1032004 931]

6 hours ago, WRfan1 said:

Are there different rules depending on the situation?  Clearly not in the rule book, but many are okay with the existence of unwritten "situational" rules.

By the letter of the law, there is no way that position was a stalemate, there were both still moving, and Fix's right leg wasn't even in, he only had a single boot in.  Situationally, its a much closer call, but I still don't agree with it. Suriano wasn't doing much at the moment it was called. 

I still don't think its near as bad as the Oliver/Steiber match, which defied just about every understanding of a takedown and hip control that I'd seen in 35 years of wrestling up to that point.  

Not an Okie State fan either, btw.  Worst call of the tourney (or lead-up to) was on Smith wrestling his kid instead of letting Rogers wrestle (17-2 when he was pulled) - cost OSU an All-American, so I wasn't crying for them.

I don’t see much movement between 15-10 seconds on the clock...

The main definition of a stalemate according to the college rule book is “neither wrestler is improving their position.”  Which looked to be the case to me there.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by 1032004

[hammerlockthree 2,083]

29 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t see much movement between 15-10 seconds on the clock...

The main definition of a stalemate according to the college rule book is “neither wrestler is improving their position.”  Which looked to be the case to me there.

 

Your claim is that both fix and Suriano were obviously chilling out.....that's what happened.....

[uncle bernard 612]

29 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t see much movement between 15-10 seconds on the clock...

The main definition of a stalemate according to the college rule book is “neither wrestler is improving their position.”  Which looked to be the case to me there.

 

I think Suriano is improving his position. It's deceptive because it doesn't look like he's moving, but if you look closer you see that he's posted on his head to keep himself from being flattened while he's fighting the hands underneath. If he frees his wrist there, he's almost out as Fix is really high.

I think in general, if a wrestler isn't flattened with double boots, they still have some room to work. Part of what was so impressive from Suriano here was that he never went to his belly at all, which allowed him to significantly improve his position after both boots come in. He always manages to sit to a hip as Fix breaks him down, which allows him to clear that first leg and come back to a tripod.

Regardless, 5 seconds of non movement is still a really quick stalemate call. There's a 0% chance that's a stalemate if it's not in rideouts.

[1032004 931]

46 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I think Suriano is improving his position. It's deceptive because it doesn't look like he's moving, but if you look closer you see that he's posted on his head to keep himself from being flattened while he's fighting the hands underneath. If he frees his wrist there, he's almost out as Fix is really high.

I think in general, if a wrestler isn't flattened with double boots, they still have some room to work. Part of what was so impressive from Suriano here was that he never went to his belly at all, which allowed him to significantly improve his position after both boots come in. He always manages to sit to a hip as Fix breaks him down, which allows him to clear that first leg and come back to a tripod.

Regardless, 5 seconds of non movement is still a really quick stalemate call. There's a 0% chance that's a stalemate if it's not in rideouts.

He was hand fighting, but he wasn’t improving IMO.

I’m sure I can find other examples of a 5 second stalemate.  Give me a minute.

[1032004 931]

23 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

He was hand fighting, but he wasn’t improving IMO.

I’m sure I can find other examples of a 5 second stalemate.  Give me a minute.

No video, but apparently Rob Koll had the same thing happen to him in the NCAA semis:

http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/20755-zain-yanni-outcome/page/4/

[hammerlockthree 2,083]

28 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

He was hand fighting, but he wasn’t improving IMO.

I’m sure I can find other examples of a 5 second stalemate.  Give me a minute.

Sorry I still don't think your claim makes any sense.....