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1032004

The Fix/Suriano Stalemate Call

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11 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I know that was from neutral but the point is...5 second stalemates happen fairly often

This is willful ignorance....

You are trying to find other bad calls or totally different situational calls to imply that bad calls must be good calls.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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25 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

This is over 20 years ago. The pace has changed IMO

Assuming you mean faster, then that would imply quick stalemate calls should be even more acceptable now than back then...

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30 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

This is willful ignorance....

You are trying to find other bad calls or totally different situational calls to imply that bad calls must be good calls.

No, I’m saying the definition of a stalemate is neither guy is improving their position. That can be evident in 5 seconds

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53 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

Stalling and stalemates called less. You said you could find examples and you found one from over two decades ago.

I wrote 5 second stalemate in a YouTube search and that came up.  I’m sure if I watched some NCAA finals I’d find some too, maybe I’ll do that this weekend or something.   

I think the fact that there weren’t many instances of people complaining of fast stalemates is evidence that it probably happens pretty regularly (and is accepted as the correct call)

Edited by 1032004

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52 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

No, I’m saying the definition of a stalemate is neither guy is improving their position. That can be evident in 5 seconds

thats almost true, alternatively a stalemate is when neither guy (within their technical limits) can improve, In the case of Suriano/fix suriano had a buffet of options. 

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

I wrote 5 second stalemate in a YouTube search and that came up.  I’m sure if I watched some NCAA finals I’d find some too, maybe I’ll do that this weekend or something.   

Maybe its not as prevalent as you thought....

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16 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

thats almost true, alternatively a stalemate is when neither guy (within their technical limits) can improve, In the case of Suriano/fix suriano had a buffet of options. 

That’s not the definition.  It’s not when they “can’t” improve, it’s just if they’re “not” improving.  Suriano was handfighting, but he wasn’t improving IMO

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/WR19.pdf

Edited by 1032004

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I'm ok with it. The rules are called differently because the objective is different. Top wrestlers aren't trying to turn, they're just trying ride out, and rarely get called for stalling unless mandated, like the 5 count. So the bottom man gets a new interpretation, too.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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what is the point of having a 30 second ride out period if you are not allowed to ride them out?

the whole point of the poo style is to reward not wrestling... second period they let that **** go entire time...

lame rule set...

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9 hours ago, 1032004 said:

No idea how this came up in a YouTube search, but check out around 3:45, stalemate called in about 2 seconds:

 

But that is one other example 20 years ago. UB is correct - No chance that would be called that quickly except in rideouts.

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Actually, it is VERY common for multiple stalemates to be called during tiebreakers.  Rightly so!  The rules tighten, since nearly all in the top position are no longer actively pursuing the fall.  As such, if you aren't improving in the top position, a restart is warranted.  I believe this to be especially true with legs when you are in the "backpack" position with a wrist ride.  Fix is doing NOTHING BUT hanging on.  This goes on from 16 to 9 seconds without argument.  

This is ABSOLUTELY how it should be called.  

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doing nothing but hanging on... so?

that is exactly what these lame OT periods are for... a lifetime of learning how to lay on someone for whole periods at a time gets taken away by a ref who wanted to make a difference... 

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

The rules tighten, since nearly all in the top position are no longer actively pursuing the fall.  As such, if you aren't improving in the top position, a restart is warranted.

Isnt the goal of this period to ride out? Why are we punishing the top guy for successfully doing that. Had Suriano gotten to his feet, and Fix mat returned him and held him flat there would be no stalemate call, but whats the difference? Its still just riding. You are essentially punishing the top guy for being too good at ride outs in a period where the goal is to get a ride out. 

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Actually, it is VERY common for multiple stalemates to be called during tiebreakers.  Rightly so!  The rules tighten, since nearly all in the top position are no longer actively pursuing the fall.  As such, if you aren't improving in the top position, a restart is warranted.  I believe this to be especially true with legs when you are in the "backpack" position with a wrist ride.  Fix is doing NOTHING BUT hanging on.  This goes on from 16 to 9 seconds without argument.  

This is ABSOLUTELY how it should be called.  

This suggests that it isn't a skill to get the boot in and punish with it.  A skill Fix has that many others don't, because if they did they would use it.  Had this been a spiral ride or a mat return while keeping the bottom man flat almost certainly a stalemate wouldn't come, but those are not as skilled a ride as what Fix did here and so what is the difference?.  Very, very poor call.

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45 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

Isnt the goal of this period to ride out? Why are we punishing the top guy for successfully doing that. Had Suriano gotten to his feet, and Fix mat returned him and held him flat there would be no stalemate call, but whats the difference? Its still just riding. You are essentially punishing the top guy for being too good at ride outs in a period where the goal is to get a ride out. 

The flipside to that is they actually ALLOW a bunch of stall riding in tiebreakers that would be called in regular.  Still, the issue with boots is NOT coming out to parallel.  You are hip to hip draped across his back.  Essentially you are not improving your position.  It is a very punishing ride and I loved it, using it often.  However, I even know that it is a very easy way to eat up time without really having a chance to improve, let alone turn your opponent.

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30 minutes ago, Class said:

This suggests that it isn't a skill to get the boot in and punish with it.  A skill Fix has that many others don't, because if they did they would use it.  Had this been a spiral ride or a mat return while keeping the bottom man flat almost certainly a stalemate wouldn't come, but those are not as skilled a ride as what Fix did here and so what is the difference?.  Very, very poor call.

It absolutely is a skill.  However, it IS worthy of a stalemate, or even stalling, very often.  Once the boot(s) go in, most wrestlers stay hip to hip, draped straight up the back.  Very little change in position occurs, which is, to me any way, the exact picture of a stalemate with both wrestlers not improving position.  I would go even one step further, that the onus is on the top guy to show marked improvement throughout or he should be subject to stalemate or stalling if he continues to "hold on".  

Simply put, boots in and a wrist ride is NOT improving position.  It IS holding on.  That is EXACTLY what happened from 16 seconds to 9 seconds and is WHY stalemate was called...........

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

doing nothing but hanging on... so?

that is exactly what these lame OT periods are for... a lifetime of learning how to lay on someone for whole periods at a time gets taken away by a ref who wanted to make a difference... 

I disagree.  A ton of stalling is called throughout the season for "hanging on" type rides.  I know you are not a fan of folk and I get why.  However, this isn't something new.  Many refs swallow the whistle in ALL styles.  However, that doesn't change what SHOULD be called.

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

I disagree.  A ton of stalling is called throughout the season for "hanging on" type rides.  I know you are not a fan of folk and I get why.  However, this isn't something new.  Many refs swallow the whistle in ALL styles.  However, that doesn't change what SHOULD be called.

not for 5 seconds of it...

the whole silly ride out periods are for exactly what fix was doing... to ride them out... it's not a pin out period or a turn out period... it is a ride out period...

the ref blew it... the moment was bigger than him and he failed...

whatever...

the real issue is the rule set and what kind of (non)wrestling it promotes...

if folk was restarted after every 5 seconds of "no improvement" i would despise it less...

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Fix can stop by NJ and visit the trophy.  That's as close as he is going to get to it despite being the World's Greatest :) .    

His coach failed him.  JS had no confidence in him.  They just wanted a cheap call and ended up with exactly what they deserved.  Nada.  

The right guy won this one.   

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