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The Fix/Suriano Stalemate Call

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25 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

The flipside to that is they actually ALLOW a bunch of stall riding in tiebreakers that would be called in regular.  Still, the issue with boots is NOT coming out to parallel.  You are hip to hip draped across his back.  Essentially you are not improving your position.  It is a very punishing ride and I loved it, using it often.  However, I even know that it is a very easy way to eat up time without really having a chance to improve, let alone turn your opponent.

Exactly (even though it's not called a "rideout" period, it's called the "tiebreaker," so thank you for noting that)

I would agree with the comment that if Suriano was flat, that probably doesn't get called.  The difference here was that Fix was too high so really wasn't doing much.  I just watched a few of his other matches and while he doesn't typically do a whole lot with the double boots, he usually at least moves around and makes it looks like he's doing something.   Here he was clearly just hanging on because if he did anything else he was at risk of Suriano coming out the back.

Side note - did Fix turn any top 20 guys with the double boots?  The only one I saw was Erneste during 2019 NCAA's and he probably should have been called for a defensive pin. 

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Allright here ya go.   I started with Fix matches because I was hoping to find a similar situation, but did find this on maybe the 4th one I watched:

 

Shortly after 3:00 a stalemate is called with Fix riding double boots and Schmitt flat (maybe 7 or 8 seconds or so from when most of the movement stopped).

6:30 and 8:30 - neutral stalemates called after about 5 seconds of minimal movement (I hope most would agree that is pretty common, but again I think that speaks to the fact that a stalemate can be evident after 5 seconds regardless of position)

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28 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

But thats not how the rule is interpreted 99% of the time.

I don’t know about that. I think a lot depends on the ref. I know for a fact that certain refs key on leg rides and I had it happen to me an entire tournament. Hell I had him literally tell me he would call stalling immediately if I put legs in again.....

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

if you are going to be rewarded for laying on someone for over a minute, then why be penalized for laying on someone for 30 seconds in a period specifically designed for just that?

it literally makes no sense at all...

 

But, that is where you are mistaken.  They are MUCH more likely to call stalling in regulation, whereas they are much more likely to call a stalemate in the tiebreakers.  A stalemate is NOT a true penalty.  In fact, there are definitely times where it has helped the top wrestler.  Stalling in tiebreakers has to be so egregious or directly follow the guidelines like riding below the waist for a 5 count.  Refs DO NOT fire off stall calls in tiebreakers!

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

But, that is where you are mistaken.  They are MUCH more likely to call stalling in regulation, whereas they are much more likely to call a stalemate in the tiebreakers.  A stalemate is NOT a true penalty.  In fact, there are definitely times where it has helped the top wrestler.  Stalling in tiebreakers has to be so egregious or directly follow the guidelines like riding below the waist for a 5 count.  Refs DO NOT fire off stall calls in tiebreakers!

In this instance, when you give the bottom guy an-entire-nother shot to get away when thats all he has to do, it seems like a penalty. I, like you, am OK with that, but then it needs to be outlined or understood that it will be called that way.

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

But, that is where you are mistaken.  They are MUCH more likely to call stalling in regulation, whereas they are much more likely to call a stalemate in the tiebreakers.  A stalemate is NOT a true penalty.  In fact, there are definitely times where it has helped the top wrestler.  Stalling in tiebreakers has to be so egregious or directly follow the guidelines like riding below the waist for a 5 count.  Refs DO NOT fire off stall calls in tiebreakers!

i was always under the impression that stall calls were not even an option in tiebreakers... 

to be fair, i would rather watch folk than read the awful rules of folk, so, that is just what i have been led to believe...

which, if stall calls are out the window then why would stalemates still be an option?

they are analogous to one another in a tiebreaker scenario...

regardless, it was an awful call based on the rules and intentions of folk wrestling...

it would be a perfectly acceptable and great call if folk wanted to reward action and wrestling, which, it clearly does not... 

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47 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Allright here ya go.   I started with Fix matches because I was hoping to find a similar situation, but did find this on maybe the 4th one I watched:

 

Shortly after 3:00 a stalemate is called with Fix riding double boots and Schmitt flat (maybe 7 or 8 seconds or so from when most of the movement stopped).

6:30 and 8:30 - neutral stalemates called after about 5 seconds of minimal movement (I hope most would agree that is pretty common, but again I think that speaks to the fact that a stalemate can be evident after 5 seconds regardless of position)

1) The first stalemate from the boots comes 27 seconds after Fix flattens him out, which is pretty standard. This hurts your argument. Not only was the call quick, but Fix didn't even have both boots in, let alone flatten him.

2) In your neutral examples, Fix visibly wasn't making an effort to improve the position. This is a situational issue. Neither wrestler wanted to be there anymore which is why the call is quicker. 

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Exactly (even though it's not called a "rideout" period, it's called the "tiebreaker," so thank you for noting that)

I would agree with the comment that if Suriano was flat, that probably doesn't get called.  The difference here was that Fix was too high so really wasn't doing much.  I just watched a few of his other matches and while he doesn't typically do a whole lot with the double boots, he usually at least moves around and makes it looks like he's doing something.   Here he was clearly just hanging on because if he did anything else he was at risk of Suriano coming out the back.

Side note - did Fix turn any top 20 guys with the double boots?  The only one I saw was Erneste during 2019 NCAA's and he probably should have been called for a defensive pin. 

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous argument. You're saying that because Fix was in a more vulnerable position, the stalemate was called? That is the opposite of what a stalemate is. The call would have been much more justified if Fix had flattened him right away, as he does to most people, and then laid on him for 10-15 seconds. It was because he wasn't actually able to do that, that the call was bad. Suriano was improving his position when it was called.

I have no problem with refs calling stalemates quickly in rideouts (though it should be made clear in the rulebook that this is the case), but they should be called in actual stalemate positions, not arbitrarily to give guys a fresh start. 

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7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

1) The first stalemate from the boots comes 27 seconds after Fix flattens him out, which is pretty standard. This hurts your argument. Not only was the call quick, but Fix didn't even have both boots in, let alone flatten him.

2) In your neutral examples, Fix visibly wasn't making an effort to improve the position. This is a situational issue. Neither wrestler wanted to be there anymore which is why the call is quicker. 

1) I said 7 or 8 seconds of little movement.   He spent 20 seconds moving his arms around pretending like he was doing something.   I apologize though I misread some of the earlier posts, I see you were actually saying that it is common for stalemates to be called with guys flattened out.

2) Yeah kinda like the video in the OP.  Neither wrestler was improving.  Again, there is nothing in the rule about "effort" to improve.  It's about actually improving.  They weren't.

 

2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous argument. You're saying that because Fix was in a more vulnerable position, the stalemate was called? That is the opposite of what a stalemate is. The call would have been much more justified if Fix had flattened him right away, as he does to most people, and then laid on him for 10-15 seconds. It was because he wasn't actually able to do that, that the call was bad. Suriano was improving his position when it was called.

I have no problem with refs calling stalemates quickly in rideouts (though it should be made clear in the rulebook that this is the case), but they should be called in actual stalemate positions, not arbitrarily to give guys a fresh start. 

Not really, he was likely fine where he was as long as he hung on as he was doing.  However if he did his typical arm waving to pretend like he was actually using the legs, then the result might have been him being in a more vulnerable position.

Again, agree to disagree that Suriano was improving his position.  He was trying to handfight, but wasn't improving.

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Follow up question for the bad call crowd:

Is there an additional amount of time in that same position that you would have been more accepting of the stalemate call?
 

As it was, on the restart there were 9 seconds remaining and Suriano got out in about 2, so even if the stalemate call is made another 5 seconds later, you could have had the same result (although obviously we'll never know).

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if you are going to make a period of time where the only goal is to not allow an escape, then you should allow the action to happen in whatever fashion it does for that entire period...

that is the only answer that makes sense...

at the beginning of the second period, that entire sequence could have played out and not one ref in this country would have blown it dead at that same time frame...

the fact that a national championship was going to be decided in the worst way possible was the underlying reason...

which makes no sense because of the way folk rewards non-wrestling anyway...

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LJB, I will give you though, watching some Fix matches, he's probably the best example of being "rewarded for not wrestling."  The amount of times the bottom guy got hit for stalling with Fix laying on him and not doing much more than waving his arms around is crazy to me.

Does Fix have any par terre offense in freestyle?

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

LJB, I will give you though, watching some Fix matches, he's probably the best example of being "rewarded for not wrestling."  The amount of times the bottom guy got hit for stalling with Fix laying on him and not doing much more than waving his arms around is crazy to me.

Does Fix have any par terre offense in freestyle?

his trap arm gut was probably the most feared par terre in the world (definitely in america) at age level... even the russians at junior worlds knew once he got on top it was over...

but, the last year or two it seems to have been figured out by the highest levels... 

plus, he rarely gets a chance to use it anymore because he has decided to not be offensive anymore in big matches...

and of course, his "clerical issues" may mean we don't see that par terre for a long time anyway...

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8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Follow up question for the bad call crowd:

Is there an additional amount of time in that same position that you would have been more accepting of the stalemate call?
 

As it was, on the restart there were 9 seconds remaining and Suriano got out in about 2, so even if the stalemate call is made another 5 seconds later, you could have had the same result (although obviously we'll never know).

In that particular scenario? It would not have been any amount of time. If Fix flattened Suriano with double boots then he likely had him dead to rights and the win. I do not like that the ref took over in a double OT ride-out period and decided to give Suriano a get out of jail free card. Fix was doing what he needed to do for a win and I blame folkstyle, not Fix. As has been mentioned how is it any different than a claw spiral that isn’t doing jack but has the same result? Philosophically speaking - why give a point for riding time if you are not encouraging smothering rather than turns?

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8 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

In that particular scenario? It would not have been any amount of time. If Fix flattened Suriano with double boots then he likely had him dead to rights and the win. I do not like that the ref took over in a double OT ride-out period and decided to give Suriano a get out of jail free card. Fix was doing what he needed to do for a win and I blame folkstyle, not Fix. As has been mentioned how is it any different than a claw spiral that isn’t doing jack but has the same result? Philosophically speaking - why give a point for riding time if you are not encouraging smothering rather than turns?

Because folkstyle is all about control?

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10 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

In that particular scenario? It would not have been any amount of time. If Fix flattened Suriano with double boots then he likely had him dead to rights and the win. I do not like that the ref took over in a double OT ride-out period and decided to give Suriano a get out of jail free card. Fix was doing what he needed to do for a win and I blame folkstyle, not Fix. As has been mentioned how is it any different than a claw spiral that isn’t doing jack but has the same result? Philosophically speaking - why give a point for riding time if you are not encouraging smothering rather than turns?

I'm OK with riding time, however I do think guys should be hit with stalling more from top if they're not doing anything but riding.   

Although, oddly enough while the HS rule book specifically says "It is stalling when the contestant in the advantage position: a. does not wrestle aggressively and attempt to secure a fall," the college rule book doesn't actually say that, and the closest it comes is saying "Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the competition circle" and "Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the wrestlers staying near the center of the mat and wrestling aggressively in all positions (top, bottom or neutral)."   So maybe the college rulebook should add that...

I agree, a claw spiral is often stalling if they're not trying to break the opponent down.  But again, I think the difference here is that even if we say Fix would have been OK in this OT period if he was "riding," I'd argue he wasn't actively "riding," IMO he was just hanging on because he got high.  And although Suriano was handfighting, he wasn't really making progress, hence what I feel was an accurate stalemate call.  

The spiral comment did remind me of the thread we had about Marinelli/White - if you're bored here's a refresher (and I will say I probably shouldn't have said the "onus" was on Marinelli to work for the fall, however I still think he was stalling much worse than White was). 

 

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if the point isn't just to lay on someone, why give a point specifically for accumulating a certain amount of time laying on someone?

 

folk just has an awful rule set that contradicts itself...

says it wants to promote "action, but, rewards inaction...

go folk...

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