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Cael trolling FloKaren - NLWC event 9/19?

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43 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I must be one of the "tens" of Flo subscribers to leave their platform, although I have not joined Rokfin. I left because Flo had no events other than FRL and that went totally downhill after they ****canned Willie. 

The allegation was that "tens" of Flo subscribers left to join Rokfin instead.  I'm sure they've had plenty of people cancel in general...

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I look forward to cancelling Flo I just have the subscription through some time in October so not much point doing so now.

Their documentaries have gotten to feel like "rinse and repeat" and the coverage of Big Ten duals and other key duals seemed to fade away from must watch ones to the "all others".  My only reluctance now is that I love to watch the Scuffle and Midlands and the UWW events of Fila Jrs, US Open and WTT but their current personnel behavioral has made a borderline decision for this upcoming renewal an easy one for me.

And LBJ I realize, that is just me.  They are not the devil, they just suck at a lot now. 

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2 hours ago, Class said:

I look forward to cancelling Flo I just have the subscription through some time in October so not much point doing so now.

Their documentaries have gotten to feel like "rinse and repeat" and the coverage of Big Ten duals and other key duals seemed to fade away from must watch ones to the "all others".  My only reluctance now is that I love to watch the Scuffle and Midlands and the UWW events of Fila Jrs, US Open and WTT but their current personnel behavioral has made a borderline decision for this upcoming renewal an easy one for me.

And LBJ I realize, that is just me.  They are not the devil, they just suck at a lot now. 

Isn’t it unlikely Scuffle and Midlands will happen at all this year?

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7 hours ago, 1032004 said:

The allegation was that "tens" of Flo subscribers left to join Rokfin instead.  I'm sure they've had plenty of people cancel in general...

they have probably had a lot of people cancel because Flo offers little outside of live events and archived film. 

so the covid situation is pretty much a nightmare.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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Lawyers are just doing what they're supposed to, protect their client's interests.  Flo's lawyer is protecting Flo, Rokfin's lawyer is protecting Rokfin, and Willie's lawyer is protecting him (hopefully...if Rokfin is paying for Willie's legal fees, that often creates problems.  Lawyers in those situations are SUPPOSED to have only their client's best interests at heart rather than the person paying them, but....that's not always how the real world works.)  As to Willie signing a non-compete, I don't think that's problematic at all, it's common practice in many places.  It's enforcability will likely revolve on it's duration and geographical coverage; most places require just that both be "reasonable" but don't really define that.  For Willie's situation, 1 year is eminently fair as far as duration goes, that likely won't be the difficulty in enforcing the agreement.  Geographical coverage is the difficult one to define, since it's an internet company.  Is it reasonable to be a nationwide restriction?  Worldwide?  Theoretically either COULD be enforceable, it's just up to the judge and/or jury.  We hashed this around a bit a few months ago and I think somebody said Texas in particular is difficult to enforce, so that obviously could be true; I don't work in Texas.

 

I'm sure there's some petty stuff going on behind the scenes, likely mostly between Martin and Mark Floreani; these types of situations can often get extremely ugly.

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11 hours ago, 1032004 said:

In the world sure, but has there really been much else to whine and complain about in the wrestling world for the past 5 months?  I’d say the Iranian wrestler being sentenced to death but that news just broke like 2 days ago.

And in case you missed it, the guy that created the company is certainly not a fan of Flo right now.  They definitely have done a lot for the sport, no doubt.  The argument now is that they’ve apparently gotten too big for their own good, and seems like they will sue anyone that poses a competitive threat to them.

No hard evidence, but certainly some indications including the aforementioned PSU doc that he wasn’t even in, and the fact that his RTC will be streaming an event live on Rokfin, which was a subject in the hearing and Cael basically announced a mere hours later.  

I’m no lawyer but as with all legal things the issue seems a bit complicated.  Based on what I’ve read, for one apparently non-competes in general are often hard to enforce.  This particular one may be harder than most given the small pool of possible employers in the wrestling world combined with the broad scope of them basically wanting it to cover the literal world.   Seems they also need to prove damages which based on Flo’s own numbers in the hearings the alleged subscribers that left Flo for Rokfin (prior to the NLWC announcement) may be in the tens at best.

One interesting thing is apparently his rankings were cited in the original complaint.   And yet when the judge issued the injunction, it specifically said he could do articles (about “future wrestling events”) and rankings.

I could maybe see people not wanting to call Flo the “bad guys” for the initial complaint, but IMO for them to file an “emergency motion” claiming he violated it because of a couple retweets and things that were posted prior to the injunction even happened is pretty ridiculous IMO.

 

Hate to break it to ya bud but it’s not a requirement that you whine about something. And if you insist, picking Flo as a wrestling fan seems incredibly counterproductive. 
 

Please explain what exactly Flo has done that you are so upset about?  They didn’t invite women on the Flo card?  Wasn’t the reality that they actually invited a bunch but they all declined?  Are you mad because they are trying to hold Willlie to his year long agreement?  Or is it still that you just don’t want to fork over that $120? Talk about freaking petty. Seems a bunch of trumped up BS to me. 

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1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

they have probably had a lot of people cancel because Flo offers little outside of live events and archived film. 

so the covid situation is pretty much a nightmare.

Not true, they have rankings, podcasts, an interview show, articles and some technique. Covid is a major blow for them just like most businesses right now but I’ve been pleasantly surprised with their content considering we’ve had no wrestling for 6 months. 

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11 hours ago, 1032004 said:

While I'm sure plenty of people did not purchase Sunday's Wrestling Underground event, I didn't see any complaints about the price.  Both UFC FightPass and Rokfin offer clearly labeled $9.99 monthly options, as opposed to FloWrestling's yearly $150 billing which they misleadingly advertise as "$12.50 per month."  

I also really hate how Flo misleads you into thinking that monthly subscriptions are possible. However, I think that started under Martin's reign...and I haven't forgotten how Flo under Martin's reign hosted copyrighted video just to turn around and issue DMCA takedown requests once they had their own copyrighted material. There is no moral high ground here, but what Flo is doing to Willie strikes a special nerve with me. I've been in the situation where colleagues in my own companies wanted to sue ex-employees that went to competitors. People have a right to work and support their families. I will never support creating financial hardships for blue collar workers just to win a corporate battle if there wasn't any real theft. For me, Rokfin is the lesser of two evils at this moment.

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8 hours ago, potdangerous said:

I also really hate how Flo misleads you into thinking that monthly subscriptions are possible. However, I think that started under Martin's reign...and I haven't forgotten how Flo under Martin's reign hosted copyrighted video just to turn around and issue DMCA takedown requests once they had their own copyrighted material. There is no moral high ground here, but what Flo is doing to Willie strikes a special nerve with me. I've been in the situation where colleagues in my own companies wanted to sue ex-employees that went to competitors. People have a right to work and support their families. I will never support creating financial hardships for blue collar workers just to win a corporate battle if there wasn't any real theft. For me, Rokfin is the lesser of two evils at this moment.

Did Willie not sign the agreement/contract?  
 

I joined Rokfin, but I rarely visit the site. Most of the content producers, at least in the wrestling world, put up a couple videos and then never add to them. They just sit stagnant for months. Almost all the ones I’ve gone to are this way. Is there no incentive to keep adding content?  

Edited by AnklePicker

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Ask three lawyers about non-competes and you'll get three different conversations. Judges interpret them differently and different states interpret them differently. If you are trained and experienced in high school wrestling journalism it's pretty unfair to say you can't ever change employers in that field without taking a year off in between. That's why there is so much focus by Karen on trade secrets or IP and saying that Willie is taking them from Flo to Rokfin, which is laughable given that they consist of popular phrases and public information. It's a lot different than when a software engineer takes an entire codebase from their former employer and migrates it into a project at their new company.

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6 hours ago, potdangerous said:

Ask three lawyers about non-competes and you'll get three different conversations. Judges interpret them differently and different states interpret them differently. If you are trained and experienced in high school wrestling journalism it's pretty unfair to say you can't ever change employers in that field without taking a year off in between. That's why there is so much focus by Karen on trade secrets or IP and saying that Willie is taking them from Flo to Rokfin, which is laughable given that they consist of popular phrases and public information. It's a lot different than when a software engineer takes an entire codebase from their former employer and migrates it into a project at their new company.

It’s pretty unfair?  Then why did Willie sign it?

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14 hours ago, Class said:

I look forward to cancelling Flo I just have the subscription through some time in October so not much point doing so now.

Their documentaries have gotten to feel like "rinse and repeat" and the coverage of Big Ten duals and other key duals seemed to fade away from must watch ones to the "all others".  My only reluctance now is that I love to watch the Scuffle and Midlands and the UWW events of Fila Jrs, US Open and WTT but their current personnel behavioral has made a borderline decision for this upcoming renewal an easy one for me.

And LBJ I realize, that is just me.  They are not the devil, they just suck at a lot now. 

If you want to cancel flo, do so now. You will still have access to all content through October because that is what you paid for. If you don’t cancel now and wait, you may miss the date at which point it will automatically renew. 
Sincerely, 

Somebody who canceled flo because I’m tired of their crap. 
 

And if enough people cancel, flo will go under.  I guarantee you that they are bleeding money with all of the other verticals they opened and the lack of content leading to loss of subscribers.  Flo is a media company that thinks it’s a tech company, and once growth stops, they will be forced to sell to a larger company that can actually deliver a reliable stream. 

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4 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

It’s pretty unfair?  Then why did Willie sign it?

Because he was desperate for the job and Flo took advantage of him.  Because who in their right mind would think somebody would enforce a non compete to prevent him from covering wrestling.  Because he’s  not actually the biggest brain in wrestling and didn’t realize flo has very sketchy business practices when he signed. 
 

It’s not like Willie is starting his own company. He just wants to cover the sport and get paid in a fake currency.

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8 hours ago, potdangerous said:

I also really hate how Flo misleads you into thinking that monthly subscriptions are possible. However, I think that started under Martin's reign...and I haven't forgotten how Flo under Martin's reign hosted copyrighted video just to turn around and issue DMCA takedown requests once they had their own copyrighted material. There is no moral high ground here, but what Flo is doing to Willie strikes a special nerve with me. I've been in the situation where colleagues in my own companies wanted to sue ex-employees that went to competitors. People have a right to work and support their families. I will never support creating financial hardships for blue collar workers just to win a corporate battle if there wasn't any real theft. For me, Rokfin is the lesser of two evils at this moment.

You can get monthly if you sign up under a different platform like football, mma, etc. You just have to search it out and they have those options. Since you get access to all the platforms when you subscribe to one you can pay by the month.

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41 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

If you want to cancel flo, do so now. You will still have access to all content through October because that is what you paid for. If you don’t cancel now and wait, you may miss the date at which point it will automatically renew. 
Sincerely, 

Somebody who canceled flo because I’m tired of their crap. 
 

And if enough people cancel, flo will go under.  I guarantee you that they are bleeding money with all of the other verticals they opened and the lack of content leading to loss of subscribers.  Flo is a media company that thinks it’s a tech company, and once growth stops, they will be forced to sell to a larger company that can actually deliver a reliable stream. 

So you actually want Flo to go under?  What makes you so sure another company will pick it up if they do?  
 

What’s the crap you are so tired of?  They’ve had some streaming issues?  

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43 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Because he was desperate for the job and Flo took advantage of him.  Because who in their right mind would think somebody would enforce a non compete to prevent him from covering wrestling.  Because he’s  not actually the biggest brain in wrestling and didn’t realize flo has very sketchy business practices when he signed. 
 

It’s not like Willie is starting his own company. He just wants to cover the sport and get paid in a fake currency.

Took advantage of him?  They gave a “desperate” dude a job. Where else was he going to get a job like that?  Willie should be thanking Flo. They gave him a platform. No one in the wrestling world would even have a clue who he is without it. 
 

The person signing the contract would be the one who should be in their right mind. I guess Flo is the only company to use on compete clauses?

Edited by AnklePicker

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16 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

So you actually want Flo to go under?  What makes you so sure another company will pick it up if they do?  
 

What’s the crap you are so tired of?  They’ve had some streaming issues?  

I think flowrestling has taken advantage of a huge revenue stream from the wrestling community and used it to to push 30 different money losing verticals. And yes, it’s pathetic that they can’t still figure out how to deal with traffic. This lawsuit against Willie is the last straw for me. 
The one really useful thing flo has done is that they have proven that there is a market for subscription streaming wrestling content.  That’s why I’m sure something will fill in the vacuum-and no I don’t think it’s Rokfin that does. Rokfin would be just as bad with their management. 

11 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Took advantage of him?  They gave a “desperate” dude a job. Where else was he going to get a job like that?  Willie should be thanking Flo. They gave him a platform. No one in the wrestling world would even have a clue who he is without it. 
 

The person signing the contract would be the one who should be in their right mind. I guess Flo is the only company to use on compete clauses?

So what if it were a 10 year non compete? Should he be forced to not cover wrestling for 10 years.  They are planning to extend the non compete for a year because they claim he has violated it.  If what flo is doing to Willie is allowed, it creates a precedent that would eliminate any negotiation power from their current employees. Imagine asking your boss for a raise when your boss has the power to prevent you from working for a year if you choose to leave. And your boss still has the power to fire you at any moment for any reason. 
 

They’re not the only company with non competes, but please provide me with another example of a non compete being enforced against a journalist who makes 45K a year? 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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28 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I think flowrestling has taken advantage of a huge revenue stream from the wrestling community and used it to to push 30 different money losing verticals. And yes, it’s pathetic that they can’t still figure out how to deal with traffic. This lawsuit against Willie is the last straw for me. 
The one really useful thing flo has done is that they have proven that there is a market for subscription streaming wrestling content.  That’s why I’m sure something will fill in the vacuum-and no I don’t think it’s Rokfin that does. Rokfin would be just as bad with their management. 

So what if it were a 10 year non compete? Should he be forced to not cover wrestling for 10 years.  They are planning to extend the non compete for a year because they claim he has violated it.  If what flo is doing to Willie is allowed, it creates a precedent that would eliminate any negotiation power from their current employees. Imagine asking your boss for a raise when your boss has the power to prevent you from working for a year if you choose to leave. And your boss still has the power to fire you at any moment for any reason. 
 

They’re not the only company with non competes, but please provide me with another example of a non compete being enforced against a journalist who makes 45K a year? 

I’m no expert when it comes to non compete clauses so I did some 2 minute google research. The following quote is from a site called newsroomlegal.com where the ran an article titled:  What a journalism student should expect in his first broadcast employment contract.  Seems it’s standard practice.  

 

”Non-Competition: You should expect to see a non-compete provision in any broadcast employment agreement you sign, even if it is for part-time work. In practice, these provisions prevent you from going to a competitor in the same market. While they are always operative DURING the term of your agreement, their power is the fact that they SURVIVE the termination of your agreement. Typically, an on-air reporter may sign a non-compete that precludes him from going to work for a competitor for six months after the end of his employment. Television lore is rife with stories about reporters who “cross the street” after their contracts are up and are made to “wait out their non-competes.”

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1 minute ago, potdangerous said:

You want a job you gotta sign it - in many industries every job has this as a requirement.

Ok so if you wanna work there you have to sign it. Seems pretty straightforward and standard practice across the journalism spectrum. You don’t have to work there. It’s your choice. 

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I wanna say too that I respect Cael’s take on Flo and if I were him, I’d probably keep them at arm’s length as well.  Cael keeps it classy and dignified and Flo, well not so much all of the time. Had they just been a bit more professional, Martin and Willie included, they could have even had guys like Cael on board. But being a pro comes with experience and I think they’ve improved in that regard but still have a long way to go and I’m glad Cael helps keep them in check.  

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Ok so if you wanna work there you have to sign it. Seems pretty straightforward and standard practice across the journalism spectrum. You don’t have to work there. It’s your choice. 

I worked for a major daily newspaper with a competitor in the same market. I didn’t have a non-compete. I’ve also worked for two wrestling-centric non-profits and left both of them to take on other wrestling-related media opportunities. No non-compete there either.

Just my experience where I’ve spent the vast majority of my career - had no non-competes.

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11 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Hate to break it to ya bud but it’s not a requirement that you whine about something. And if you insist, picking Flo as a wrestling fan seems incredibly counterproductive. 
 

Please explain what exactly Flo has done that you are so upset about?  They didn’t invite women on the Flo card?  Wasn’t the reality that they actually invited a bunch but they all declined?  Are you mad because they are trying to hold Willlie to his year long agreement?  Or is it still that you just don’t want to fork over that $120? Talk about freaking petty. Seems a bunch of trumped up BS to me. 

Most of the other stuff (ignoring events they don’t broadcast, stream issues, alleged unfair treatment of women, misleading marketing to name a few) are just minor annoyances, but there are several of them.

What they are doing to Willie particularly evident in these last 2 hearings crossed the line for me, and I’m not even a big fan of Willie.

Yes, he signed a non compete, but most people will sign anything you put in front of them in order to start a job.  That doesn’t mean it’s enforceable, which it seems a lot of people agree that many non competes in general are unenforceable and this one in particular maybe even moreso. 

For one, Martin is the one that signed Willie’s original non compete (I think part of the reason Rokfin is involved).  He’s no saint, but he seems to care about Willie and I don’t think he would have let him come on board if he thought this would happen. 

I bet part of why Martin probably thought it wasn’t violating it was I believe the original non compete used the term “sports video industry.”  Because Willie isn’t producing events, they probably thought they weren’t violating it.

Which the judge basically agreed with for the most part, essentially saying he could “write and rank again.”  So to be clear, Flo isn’t even just “enforcing  the non compete.”  That was before.  Now, after the judge stated what Willie was allowed to do, Flo filed an “emergency” motion claiming he violated it, essentially because he used the terms “Big Board,” “crystal ball,” and greatest [brain emoji] in [wrestling emoji].

Doing some of my own googling, the first like 10 results are about a woman who tried to leave Law360 for Reuters but was fired from Reuters because of the non compete.  Law360 later removed the non compete in a settlement with the attorney general - https://www.cjr.org/business_of_news/non-compete-agreement-journalism.php

At the company I work for, we’ve had 4 or 5 people go work for our leading competitor (in our market niche, there are really only about 3 legitimate competitors).  Only our executive VP who became the CEO of the other company was subject to a non-compete.  So like Willie’s lawyer said, if Willie was making millions maybe they’d have an argument.   But right now they just look extremely petty IMO, and these legal proceedings are doing exactly what they’re  accusing Willie of doing, probably moreso.

 

Edited by 1032004

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