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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I haven't seen the match yet but it's less about who is more aggressive and more about who is controlling center.  International wrestling they do not want wrestling on the edge of the mat.

This is not true.  At least not as of March 2020.  The rules say nothing about controlling the center.  Here is the rules directly from UWW.

 

Article 47 –Enforcement of Passivity (Freestyle and Greco Roman) Procedure for enforcement of penalties for inactivity in Freestyle wrestling One of the roles of the refereeing body should be to evaluate and distinguish what is real action versus a feigned attempt to waste time. a. Anytime the refereeing body agrees a wrestler is blocking, interlocking fingers, thwarting his opponent and/or generally avoiding wrestling: the referee signals to the wrestler “Caution blue or red”.

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1 hour ago, AnklePicker said:

This is not true.  At least not as of March 2020.  The rules say nothing about controlling the center.  Here is the rules directly from UWW.

 

Article 47 –Enforcement of Passivity (Freestyle and Greco Roman) Procedure for enforcement of penalties for inactivity in Freestyle wrestling One of the roles of the refereeing body should be to evaluate and distinguish what is real action versus a feigned attempt to waste time. a. Anytime the refereeing body agrees a wrestler is blocking, interlocking fingers, thwarting his opponent and/or generally avoiding wrestling: the referee signals to the wrestler “Caution blue or red”.

One thing you have to realize is the UWW rule book is not interpreted as black and white as the Folkstyle rule books. Philosophy is everything. And international wrestling, hanging on the outside is deemed as generally avoiding wrestling. They want wrestling in the center of the mat. If you want to do a study go back and look through cautions/shot clocks. You will find that the VAST majority of the time it is the athlete not controlling center being called, no matter how many shots are taken.  This is very true. 

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24 minutes ago, Lurker said:

One thing you have to realize is the UWW rule book is not interpreted as black and white as the Folkstyle rule books. Philosophy is everything. And international wrestling, hanging on the outside is deemed as generally avoiding wrestling. They want wrestling in the center of the mat. If you want to do a study go back and look through cautions/shot clocks. You will find that the VAST majority of the time it is the athlete not controlling center being called, no matter how many shots are taken.  This is very true. 

Well it's not just philosophy.  There is also a passivity zone (the orange part) which does play a part in detecting the passive wrestler obviously because if you are backing up into that area to some degree you are being passive but my point is passivity is not JUST about controlling the center.

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8 hours ago, boconnell said:

Lewis used a single leg pretty effectively against Joseph.  I think JB would be more effective.  

Yeah I forgot about the Bill Farrell matches. It’s not something I would be mad or stress about being wrong about it. That matchup is just very intriguing to me

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16 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

I listened to some dad go on and on about his 10 year old the other night......I couldn't take it anymore.....this dad never wrestled from what I know, but has become an expert....loves his Track Wrestling....

 

It’s a weird problem with wrestling culture in the US. The dad coaching directly leads to burnout and kids peaking too soon and having limited tool sets. It also leads directly to a system where if 10/100 kids who startEd in elementary wrestling, wrestle more than 2 years of high school, it’s an anomaly. 

 

 I don’t know a single College wrestling coach who likes the system, or does it with their own kids .but they have to recruit those kids to keep their jobs. And dads like those are what fuel the new wrestling economy of the last 10 years or so. 
 

It’s why I don’t care about whether or not they switch the styles, (I would benefit as a coach from a switch, I’m not anti freestyle) even if we switch to freestyle, there will be just as much overtraining, overcompeting and burnout as there was before. None of the underlying issues would be addressed much less solved. That same person I talked about earlier was like “no there’d be less burnout cause look at how the Russians and Europeans train”. Just because the style changed doesn’t mean parents will magically change how they coach or handle their little “stud”. It also wouldn’t change how the competition is set up. 
 

The point of my ramble is. That dad coach culture is one of biggest reasons I’m genuinely worried about the survival of the sport. Especially because I’ve found they are the ones who are most active and vocal in preventing necessary changes. But that’s a whole different discussion 

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8 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Well it's not just philosophy.  There is also a passivity zone (the orange part) which does play a part in detecting the passive wrestler obviously because if you are backing up into that area to some degree you are being passive but my point is passivity is not JUST about controlling the center.

Nothing is 100%. But controlling center is the #1 thing they are looking at. 

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6 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah my goodness, where is the replay?

Is cael so pissed that he is gonna make everyone who signed up drop the subscription. 

I know, I quickly switched to watch Chimaev fight and that only lasted 17 seconds, came back and missed Kyle Snyder's match. Want to see the Zain match again also.

Ok, so far Flo's better - they post the replays.  :D 

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About half of them are up now. Watching Nolf/McFadden as I type this.

The fact that McFadden was credited with two points on what was clearly Nolf’s offensive move (Wynn Dixie) irritates me. If that’s 2 for McFadden, it should be 2 every time someone initiated a lace or gut. McFadden was not at all in control and did not initiate the point scoring action.


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10 hours ago, Le duke said:

About half of them are up now. Watching Nolf/McFadden as I type this.

The fact that McFadden was credited with two points on what was clearly Nolf’s offensive move (Wynn Dixie) irritates me. If that’s 2 for McFadden, it should be 2 every time someone initiated a lace or gut. McFadden was not at all in control and did not initiate the point scoring action.


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I know a couple younger (early 20s) people who are on the freestyle reffing ladder. Whenever I watch matches with them, they get extremely frustrated about how older refs aren’t held to the same standards, or expected to have the same consistency, and don’t call situations correctly. And how the old guard definitely play favorites (and other accusations).

They all cannot wait until Sam Julian takes over. And it’s especially frustrating because other countries (including Russia) have expressed jealousy of the US having the most thorough and standardized referee training and advancement program.. BUT once you get to the senior level with the entrenched old time officials, it looks like we’re just as bad, inconsistent and biased as the other countries refs 

Edited by jp157
Grammar

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13 hours ago, Le duke said:

The fact that McFadden was credited with two points on what was clearly Nolf’s offensive move (Wynn Dixie) irritates me. If that’s 2 for McFadden, it should be 2 every time someone initiated a lace or gut. McFadden was not at all in control and did not initiate the point scoring action.

Yeah, that was an extremely bad call. McFadden got two points just for being there. I thought so at first, and then when they showed the replay it was even more obvious.

Edited by IronChef

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Yeah, that was an extremely bad call. McFadden got two points just for being there. I thought so at first, and then when they showed the replay it was even more obvious.

I think it’s one thing that some of the PSU/NLWC guys might struggle with as they move into freestyle.

Guys like Nolf and Nickal have always been super creative, and the FS rules, at least how they are interpreted and called, penalize that.


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51 minutes ago, IronChef said:

Yeah, that was an extremely bad call. McFadden got two points just for being there. I thought so at first, and then when they showed the replay it was even more obvious.

This one?

I'm not a freestyle expert, but McFadden was in on a shot.   Nolf didn't really "initiate" much IMO until he was on his head.   I think that's a lot different than a lace or a gut

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55 minutes ago, IronChef said:

Yeah, that was an extremely bad call. McFadden got two points just for being there. I thought so at first, and then when they showed the replay it was even more obvious.

That was not a bad call. That is a great example to show at the kids club level to teach the scoring difference and positional awareness between freestyle and folkstyle.

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3 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Anecdotely, It seems like the higher levels FS of refs are young. Not so much with the officials. 

Most of the other levels are older. 

I’m just relaying what they have expressed. One is a little more dramatic than the other. But on this topic they are consistent. I get it’s anecdotal. That’s why I only said what I did. Saying the really inflammatory stuff I’ve heard would only cause unsubstantiated drama and whatnot. 

When I described the Yianni/Zane match to the more level headed one. They asked if it was Tucci that made the controversial call before we even watched the match together. (I was curious how a current rising FS ref would call it). They also expressed absolutely no surprise at Tucci or some of the other panel refs being the ones involved. 
 

My point being that it explains the inconsistency in the Senior level reffing 

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1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

That was not a bad call. That is a great example to show at the kids club level to teach the scoring difference and positional awareness between freestyle and folkstyle.

There is no conceptual difference between what Nolf did and a crotch lift where the lifter rolls across his own back. 

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54 minutes ago, IronChef said:

There is no conceptual difference between what Nolf did and a crotch lift where the lifter rolls across his own back. 

The one big difference is that Nolf completely changed the direction, almost 180 degrees in fact

 

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

This one?

I'm not a freestyle expert, but McFadden was in on a shot.   Nolf didn't really "initiate" much IMO until he was on his head.   I think that's a lot different than a lace or a gut

Have to respectfully disagree.  A key component is watch blue's right hand.  He goes to the upper leg, then ankle to push red's foot in and under his body, this is to eliminate him from being able to post that foot up, he thing right away dives over red's body into the roll, and completely changing red's direction.  In my opinion that was 100% initiated by blue and should have been 

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9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

The one big difference is that Nolf completely changed the direction, almost 180 degrees in fact

 

Have to respectfully disagree.  A key component is watch blue's right hand.  He goes to the upper leg, then ankle to push red's foot in and under his body, this is to eliminate him from being able to post that foot up, he thing right away dives over red's body into the roll, and completely changing red's direction.  In my opinion that was 100% initiated by blue and should have been 

Disagree- as soon as DM tucks the leg under it's his move. He made the shot and then rotated to his right making Nolf fall to his back. Nolf's motion came after he started to go to his back.

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30 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

 

Have to respectfully disagree.  A key component is watch blue's right hand.  He goes to the upper leg, then ankle to push red's foot in and under his body, this is to eliminate him from being able to post that foot up, he thing right away dives over red's body into the roll, and completely changing red's direction.  In my opinion that was 100% initiated by blue and should have been 

If grabbing an ankle while your being lifted up counts as "you initiating it," then sure.    He did go to the upper leg first, but then IMO after that he was lifted up which is when he grabbed for the ankle.   

 

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

If grabbing an ankle while your being lifted up counts as "you initiating it," then sure.    He did go to the upper leg first, but then IMO after that he was lifted up which is when he grabbed for the ankle.   

 

If you can't tell who initiated that, I don't know what to tell you. Have you ever seen Nolf hit that before?

He stopped the motion and changed the direction more than a typical belly tilt, crotchlift, or chest lock. Embarrassing incompetence from a US ref. I could see an international official screwing it up out of ignorance because it's not a position that happens a lot overseas, but no excuse domestically.

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