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1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

If you can't tell who initiated that, I don't know what to tell you. Have you ever seen Nolf hit that before?

He stopped the motion and changed the direction more than a typical belly tilt, crotchlift, or chest lock. Embarrassing incompetence from a US ref. I could see an international official screwing it up out of ignorance because it's not a position that happens a lot overseas, but no excuse domestically.

So you are concerned that US refs are scoring consistent with their international peers?

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14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

If you can't tell who initiated that, I don't know what to tell you. Have you ever seen Nolf hit that before?

He stopped the motion and changed the direction more than a typical belly tilt, crotchlift, or chest lock. Embarrassing incompetence from a US ref. I could see an international official screwing it up out of ignorance because it's not a position that happens a lot overseas, but no excuse domestically.

Well where does the "initiation" start?  Again, to me doesn't look like he "changed the direction" until he was on his head with his back exposed but then used his left knee to pull him back.

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3 hours ago, jp157 said:

I’m just relaying what they have expressed. One is a little more dramatic than the other. But on this topic they are consistent. I get it’s anecdotal. That’s why I only said what I did. Saying the really inflammatory stuff I’ve heard would only cause unsubstantiated drama and whatnot. 

When I described the Yianni/Zane match to the more level headed one. They asked if it was Tucci that made the controversial call before we even watched the match together. (I was curious how a current rising FS ref would call it). They also expressed absolutely no surprise at Tucci or some of the other panel refs being the ones involved. 
 

My point being that it explains the inconsistency in the Senior level reffing 

Yeah.  I can't recall the last elderly ref in a high level FS match.  Lots of mat officials though.  Most of the older ones remember what real wrestling was like :)

The guy that red carded Carl is great. As is Babi from The Stoner State.

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21 minutes ago, jp157 said:

How the hell can someone who knows wrestling say red initiates the move. Nolf launches himself into the win-Dixie roll

It is a weird situation.  My initial reaction was 2red, but I reconsidered.

Edited by Plasmodium

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Well where does the "initiation" start?  Again, to me doesn't look like he "changed the direction" until he was on his head with his back exposed but then used his left knee to pull him back.

Have you ever seen the move before? It's not a rhetorical question. Anybody who has seen Nolf hit this before, knows it's 100% his action.

It's unorthodox, but the motion is all Nolf. Watch how as soon as McFadden starts to split the middle, Nolf shifts his body so that he's perpendicular to McFadden, trapping McFadden's head between his legs and following that with his whip motion to expose him. Also, just watch McFadden's reaction. Nothing about that says "I planned to be here."

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1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

So you are concerned that US refs are scoring consistent with their international peers?

No. We don't know how an international ref might score that because nobody has ever hit a winn dixie overseas before.

My point was that sometimes international officials screw up common US based sequences out of ignorance/confusion. For example, Cael turned somebody with a nearside cradle and held him on his back and the official gave his opponent 2 points for exposure as Cael held him. Cradles were not widespread internationally at the time and were often met with confusion by opponents and officials. You wouldn't see that now. Similarly, if this move were to be widely used, I would expect inconsistency at first, followed by clarification and a consistent ruling in favor of Nolf (or whoever is hitting it).

 

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17 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Have you ever seen the move before? It's not a rhetorical question. Anybody who has seen Nolf hit this before, knows it's 100% his action.

It's unorthodox, but the motion is all Nolf. Watch how as soon as McFadden starts to split the middle, Nolf shifts his body so that he's perpendicular to McFadden, trapping McFadden's head between his legs and following that with his whip motion to expose him. Also, just watch McFadden's reaction. Nothing about that says "I planned to be here."

Yes but not in freestyle.

Again, when does it start being "all Nolf"?   To me it looks like McFadden lifts him up as if he's trying to "come out the back door."  I would say it was primarily "all McFadden" until Nolf's head was on the mat, which is arguably the same time his back is exposed.

Just watching a few videos of him doing it in folkstyle and it doesn't look too much different in that he doesn't really start the primary movement of the move until he's on his head.  However it looks like most of the time when he's on his head his body is still perpendicular to the mat, which wasn't what happened in this case.

Where's LJB when you need him?

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2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Disagree- as soon as DM tucks the leg under it's his move. He made the shot and then rotated to his right making Nolf fall to his back. Nolf's motion came after he started to go to his back.

Okay, agree to disagree

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

If grabbing an ankle while your being lifted up counts as "you initiating it," then sure.    He did go to the upper leg first, but then IMO after that he was lifted up which is when he grabbed for the ankle.   

 

If it was nothing more than grabbing his ankle, I would agree with that.  But it looked to me like grabbing the ankle was the first step in his process.  

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

If it was nothing more than grabbing his ankle, I would agree with that.  But it looked to me like grabbing the ankle was the first step in his process.  

The move was more than that, but IMO the main thing that "initiated it" was his knee, which didn't happen until after his back was exposed.

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3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The move was more than that, but IMO the main thing that "initiated it" was his knee, which didn't happen until after his back was exposed.

Fair enough.  Different people see different things in these situations.

 

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28 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The move was more than that, but IMO the main thing that "initiated it" was his knee, which didn't happen until after his back was exposed.

I'm sorry but you're just completely wrong here. With a lot of these calls there is room for interpretation, but you're just not seeing the position at all. Nolf's back only exposed because he initiated the move. He initiates the move as soon as McFadden chooses to come out the back. The second McFadden ducks his head under and lifts, Nolf is swinging his hips over and perpendicular to hit it. 

It's literally his signature move. He baits people into the position and exposes them. McFadden had nothing to do with that action. If you can't see that, there's really nothing more to discuss.

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18 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

It's literally his signature move. He baits people into the position and exposes them. McFadden had nothing to do with that action. If you can't see that, there's really nothing more to discuss.

It's his signature move in folkstyle. This is freestyle. The rules are different.

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Had you seen the move before this?

Not really.  I have seen Nolf do weird stuff like that and end up in a crucifix. 

Almost every foreign ref is going to say he put Nolf in that drape position (like millions of other times) and they are going to award those points to red.  Maybe 2-2.   It took a ref over a minute to call a spladle pin for Simmons a few years back simply because he didn't know what he was looking at.  I felt bad for his opponent.

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26 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Not really.  I have seen Nolf do weird stuff like that and end up in a crucifix. 

Almost every foreign ref is going to say he put Nolf in that drape position (like millions of other times) and they are going to award those points to red.  Maybe 2-2.   It took a ref over a minute to call a spladle pin for Simmons a few years back simply because he didn't know what he was looking at.  I felt bad for his opponent.

RIP Moldova

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

It's his signature move in folkstyle. This is freestyle. The rules are different.

Correct, but it doesn't change the...opinion....that he initiated the move.  In folkstyle it does not matter one bit who initiated the move. in freestyle, If he initiated that action, which there is obviously a difference in opinion, they are his points.  

Makes me wonder if the officials on the match (my understanding was it went two red, but I have only seen the clip) have not seen him do that before.

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2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

I'm sorry but you're just completely wrong here. With a lot of these calls there is room for interpretation, but you're just not seeing the position at all. Nolf's back only exposed because he initiated the move. He initiates the move as soon as McFadden chooses to come out the back. The second McFadden ducks his head under and lifts, Nolf is swinging his hips over and perpendicular to hit it. 

It's literally his signature move. He baits people into the position and exposes them. McFadden had nothing to do with that action. If you can't see that, there's really nothing more to discuss.

So you’re admitting that McFadden “lifts,” but claim he had nothing to do with Nolf going towards his back?  That doesn’t add up to me.  McFadden started getting Nolf going towards his back...Nolf just kept going with the Winn Dixie.   In most of the other clips I watched, there was often a pause when he was on his head before he swung his hips/knee, so it’s more clear when he “initiates” it (not that it matters in folk).  But this one was more of one motion where he does it as he’s being lifted.

Edited by 1032004

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4 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Yeah.  I can't recall the last elderly ref in a high level FS match.  Lots of mat officials though.  Most of the older ones remember what real wrestling was like :)

The guy that red carded Carl is great. As is Babi from The Stoner State.

Shrug, I’m simply relaying what has been told to me by people involved. I’ve quiet deliberately left it as neutral and Non inflammatory as possible and still convey what they said. 

What exactly is “real” wrestling? I’m genuinely curious. These type of comments are always quite amusing. 
 

And to everyone. McFadden “lifted” as in he split the middle.. Nolf clearly launched himself into the Roll When he felt it. 

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9 hours ago, Le duke said:


I think it’s one thing that some of the PSU/NLWC guys might struggle with as they move into freestyle.

Guys like Nolf and Nickal have always been super creative, and the FS rules, at least how they are interpreted and called, penalize that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually to the contrary, being creative and getting exposures will help guys like that. Freestyle is more of an artform in that there needs to be creativity. 

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10 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Shrug, I’m simply relaying what has been told to me by people involved. I’ve quiet deliberately left it as neutral and Non inflammatory as possible and still convey what they said. 

What exactly is “real” wrestling? I’m genuinely curious. These type of comments are always quite amusing. 
 

And to everyone. McFadden “lifted” as in he split the middle.. Nolf clearly launched himself into the Roll When he felt it. 

You'll have to ask them what it was like back in the day!

We used to kick each other in the testicles 5 times before bed to get toughened up.  I bet they don't balls enough to do that anymore.

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3 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

You'll have to ask them what it was like back in the day!

We used to kick each other in the testicles 5 times before bed to get toughened up.  I bet they don't balls enough to do that anymore.

No no no sir. You should be the one to tell me what “real” wrestling is. You brought it up and are clearly defending some sort of old timer honor Or some such thing. What is “real” wrestling? 

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