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19 minutes ago, jp157 said:

No no no sir. You should be the one to tell me what “real” wrestling is. You brought it up and are clearly defending some sort of old timer honor Or some such thing. What is “real” wrestling? 

Huh? I clearly demarcated my sarcasm with a smile.

Back to the topic at hand.  This was scored 2 & 2?  If you were Carl for a day would you throw a brick on that?  I wouldn't.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Correct, but it doesn't change the...opinion....that he initiated the move.  In folkstyle it does not matter one bit who initiated the move. in freestyle, If he initiated that action, which there is obviously a difference in opinion, they are his points.  

Makes me wonder if the officials on the match (my understanding was it went two red, but I have only seen the clip) have not seen him do that before.

Dm initiated the sequence by shooting. Nolf countered. The initially offensive wrestler will get the benefit of the doubt in freestyle. My opinion is that nolf was exposed and then worked the counter. Grabbing the foot wasn't at first something that caused motion. It turned into that eventually. One of the classic situations is if you shoot a single or double and the other guy counters rolling over his own back. The initial shooter will get credit unless the other guy completely stops the motion and goes opposite. The second guy might get a reversal or even exposure but after the points are awarded to the first guy. 

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Dm initiated the sequence by shooting. Nolf countered. The initially offensive wrestler will get the benefit of the doubt in freestyle. My opinion is that nolf was exposed and then worked the counter. Grabbing the foot wasn't at first something that caused motion. It turned into that eventually. One of the classic situations is if you shoot a single or double and the other guy counters rolling over his own back. The initial shooter will get credit unless the other guy completely stops the motion and goes opposite. The second guy might get a reversal or even exposure but after the points are awarded to the first guy. 

Every crotch lift that scores two should also be two for the shooter, then.


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11 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Dm initiated the sequence by shooting. Nolf countered. The initially offensive wrestler will get the benefit of the doubt in freestyle. My opinion is that nolf was exposed and then worked the counter. Grabbing the foot wasn't at first something that caused motion. It turned into that eventually. One of the classic situations is if you shoot a single or double and the other guy counters rolling over his own back. The initial shooter will get credit unless the other guy completely stops the motion and goes opposite. The second guy might get a reversal or even exposure but after the points are awarded to the first guy. 

It is not who initiated the sequence, it is who initiated the scoring action.

We see it differently, agree to disagree.  No worries.  That's what makes the USA so great.

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Just now, Le duke said:


Every crotch lift that scores two should also be two for the shooter, then.


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No. But many are. And the crotch lift is often the situation I was describing.

If the shooter continues his motion while the crotch lift is in progress then it scores for the shooter. If the defender stops the motion and then throws then he scores.

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3 minutes ago, Le duke said:


Every crotch lift that scores two should also be two for the shooter, then.


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Very valid point.  Or think of Dake's chest wrap,  He exposes himself when he executes and the opponent initiated the action with a shot.  A big difference in this case is that Nolf actually changed the direction of the action, almost 180 degrees.  At least that's how I saw it.

Edited by Lurker

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

It is not who initiated the sequence, it is who initiated the scoring action.

We see it differently, agree to disagree.  No worries.  That's what makes the USA so great.

No, that's simply incorrect philosophy given what you are thinking. The scoring action IS what DM initiated since it was during his action that Nolf went to his back. DM shot, secured the leg and twisted causing Nolf to fall off to the side. That's regardless of the fact that Nolf often does it on his own. Nolf can use this in folkstyle effectively since simply going towards your back won't result in a score from neutral unless the ref gets the 3 count going. 

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Just now, gimpeltf said:

No, that's simply incorrect philosophy given what you are thinking. The scoring action IS what DM initiated since it was during his action that Nolf went to his back. DM shot, secured the leg and twisted causing Nolf to fall off to the side. That's regardless of the fact that Nolf often does it on his own. Nolf can use this in folkstyle effectively since simply going towards your back won't result in a score from neutral unless the ref gets the 3 count going. 

Again, we disagree on who/what initiated the scoring action.  And its okay to agree to disagree.  Good night.

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16 hours ago, jp157 said:

How the hell can someone who knows wrestling say red initiates the move. Nolf launches himself into the win-Dixie roll

So your claim is that Nolf jumped from the mat over McFadden's back, and that he was not lifted, correct?  

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

So your claim is that Nolf jumped from the mat over McFadden's back, and that he was not lifted, correct?  

McFadden “lifted” to the split the middle.. then Nolf launches himself into the roll and clearly is taking McFadden the direction he wants to go. No wrestler who was in on that shot and then got hit by that counter would tell you they initiated putting Nolf to his back.

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19 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Not really.  I have seen Nolf do weird stuff like that and end up in a crucifix. 

Almost every foreign ref is going to say he put Nolf in that drape position (like millions of other times) and they are going to award those points to red.  Maybe 2-2.   It took a ref over a minute to call a spladle pin for Simmons a few years back simply because he didn't know what he was looking at.  I felt bad for his opponent.

This is my whole point actually. It's Nolf's move, but because it's unorthodox international refs might screw it up. It's weird and it happens fast. Doesn't mean McFadden did anything to earn those points.

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14 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

No, that's simply incorrect philosophy given what you are thinking. The scoring action IS what DM initiated since it was during his action that Nolf went to his back. DM shot, secured the leg and twisted causing Nolf to fall off to the side. That's regardless of the fact that Nolf often does it on his own. Nolf can use this in folkstyle effectively since simply going towards your back won't result in a score from neutral unless the ref gets the 3 count going. 

This did not happen. Nolf jumped his hips to that position because that's how the move is executed. McFadden did nothing to initiate that. Anybody who has seen him do this knows this.

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17 hours ago, 1032004 said:

So you’re admitting that McFadden “lifts,” but claim he had nothing to do with Nolf going towards his back?  That doesn’t add up to me.  McFadden started getting Nolf going towards his back...Nolf just kept going with the Winn Dixie.   In most of the other clips I watched, there was often a pause when he was on his head before he swung his hips/knee, so it’s more clear when he “initiates” it (not that it matters in folk).  But this one was more of one motion where he does it as he’s being lifted.

Uhh, yes correct. The backdoor position doesn't expose Nolf's back. He exposes his own back when he initiates the roll. Go watch the video you linked. McFadden tries to turn to his right to isolate the leg, gets immediately whipped back over his head to his left, ending on his back.

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I think most of the confusion from those who agree with the call comes from an unfamiliarity with the move and not understanding who is doing what, so I've linked a brief technique demonstration by cliff fretwell

 Pay attention to how the move is based around baiting the offensive wrestler into isolating a leg (as McFadden did). When they go to pull the leg down, Cliff shows how Nolf shifts his hips so that instead of draping parallel to the offensive wrestler, he is now perpendicular, allowing him to trap the head and use his captured leg to whip his opponent to his back.

Some of you seem to think McFadden is the one that put Nolf's hips in that position. Simply not the case. That's the whole design of the move. As soon as Nolf baits McFadden coming out the back door, he jumps perpendicular to hit it. He was thinking winn dixie as soon as McFadden got to the leg.

 

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Here are even more links. This is why refs and coaches should always try to be on the mat little bit and playing with positions as much as they can. Biggest reason for a lot of the old school critics of newer stuff is because they have no idea now it actually “feels” or works.

Nolf roll

Nolf roll 2

not sure how to embed like the above post lol

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14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I think most of the confusion from those who agree with the call comes from an unfamiliarity with the move and not understanding who is doing what, so I've linked a brief technique demonstration by cliff fretwell

 Pay attention to how the move is based around baiting the offensive wrestler into isolating a leg (as McFadden did). When they go to pull the leg down, Cliff shows how Nolf shifts his hips so that instead of draping parallel to the offensive wrestler, he is now perpendicular, allowing him to trap the head and use his captured leg to whip his opponent to his back.

Some of you seem to think McFadden is the one that put Nolf's hips in that position. Simply not the case. That's the whole design of the move. As soon as Nolf baits McFadden coming out the back door, he jumps perpendicular to hit it. He was thinking winn dixie as soon as McFadden got to the leg.

 

Observation 1 is that Fretwell didn't expose when he executed the move.  Nolf completely exposed well before he rotated hips.

Observation 2 is that Nolf grabbed the wrong toe to execute this move, which is exactly what Fretwell says is the typical reaction in that position.

Observation 3 is that the way Nolf executed this move is a mistake in FS because he can't reliably predict how the officials will react.

Observation 4 is that the move is entertaining (even if not effective) and probably fun as hell for Nolf.

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3 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Here are even more links. This is why refs and coaches should always try to be on the mat little bit and playing with positions as much as they can. Biggest reason for a lot of the old school critics of newer stuff is because they have no idea now it actually “feels” or works.

Nolf roll

Nolf roll 2

not sure how to embed like the above post lol

Great post! Just replying to embed the videos you posted to make sure they get watched as they do a great job of explaining the position.

I've linked this one at the time where he explains how Nolf baits his opponent into isolating his left leg. This should remove any doubt as to who initiates the roll.

 

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2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Observation 1 is that Fretwell didn't expose when he executed the move.  Nolf completely exposed well before he rotated hips.

Observation 2 is that Nolf grabbed the wrong toe to execute this move, which is exactly what Fretwell says is the typical reaction in that position.

Observation 3 is that the way Nolf executed this move is a mistake in FS because he can't reliably predict how the officials will react.

Observation 4 is that the move is entertaining (even if not effective) and probably fun as hell for Nolf.

1. The video replay linked in the thread is in slow motion. It's all one motion. This analysis would mean that every crotchlift, chest lock, and belly tilt would also give up exposure as the defensive man's back always exposes first.

2. The foot grab is not important to the move. People focusing on it are missing the forest for the trees. 

3. Correct and something I've said from the beginning. However, this doesn't mean that it is scored correctly which is the debate we're having now. There's a history of international officials struggling to understand what is going on in basic US moves. 

4. Yes it is. He spent the last two years of his college career baiting inferior opponents into it just to play with them. It's amazing how many guys just can't help themselves there. 

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2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Great post! Just replying to embed the videos you posted to make sure they get watched as they do a great job of explaining the position.

I've linked this one at the time where he explains how Nolf baits his opponent into isolating his left leg. This should remove any doubt as to who initiates the roll.

 

Slightly different positions than the match in question.  In FS, the ASU match definitely results in points for Shields. 

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2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Slightly different positions than the match in question.  In FS, the ASU match definitely results in points for Shields. 

There's no hope for you at this point. Moving on.

(Heffernan, not Shields btw. Paying closer attention might help.)

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4 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

1. The video replay linked in the thread is in slow motion. It's all one motion. This analysis would mean that every crotchlift, chest lock, and belly tilt would also give up exposure as the defensive man's back always exposes first.

2. The foot grab is not important to the move. People focusing on it are missing the forest for the trees. 

3. Correct and something I've said from the beginning. However, this doesn't mean that it is scored correctly which is the debate we're having now. There's a history of international officials struggling to understand what is going on in basic US moves. 

4. Yes it is. He spent the last two years of his college career baiting inferior opponents into it just to play with them. It's amazing how many guys just can't help themselves there. 

It wasn't all one motion for Nolf/Mcfadden, slight stall while exposed.   I am unsure whether red should be awarded points.  Mcfadden created the position where Nolf exposed and Nolf stalled slightly in his counter. 

I certainly wouldn't throw a brick on this situation, would you?

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

It wasn't all one motion for Nolf/Mcfadden, slight stall while exposed.   I am unsure whether red should be awarded points.  Mcfadden created the position where Nolf exposed and Nolf stalled slightly in his counter. 

I certainly wouldn't throw a brick on this situation, would you?

I'm not sure I'd throw a brick because of pt. 3 you made earlier. Referee incompetence is more important than whether the call is actually right in that calculation. In the US, I would maybe challenge (depending on the situation obviously) because I'm guessing there's a better chance at least one guy had seen the move and could explain it to the other officials and they'd see what's happening better. Overseas it's not likely.

I don't think we'll see Nolf hit this in big matches because of the difficulty officials will have with it, but I still think it's clearly his move alone.

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2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Uhh, yes correct. The backdoor position doesn't expose Nolf's back. He exposes his own back when he initiates the roll. Go watch the video you linked. McFadden tries to turn to his right to isolate the leg, gets immediately whipped back over his head to his left, ending on his back.

I never said anything about McFadden turning.   I said he lifted him, which you seem to be admitting to.   However in a later post you are saying Nolf jumps, so which is it?  

Nolf does duck his head to roll and then he whips the knee, but that's basically at the same time his back is being exposed.    Because of that, this isn't comparable to a crotch lift IMO, because of how McFadden lifts Nolf.  I think a better comparison would be if someone got headlocked but then rolled through.   How would that be scored in freestyle?

I watched the majority of the linked videos yesterday.   Don't have time now but will double check to see if there were any I didn't watch.  As you admitted to and I agree with, in the McFadden match, this was basically all one motion.  Several of the other videos seemed to be a separate motion where he pauses while his head is on the mat.   And while his head is on the mat, he is often perpendicular to the mat and not exposing his back which was not the case in the McFadden match.

 

 

Edited by 1032004

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