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10 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I never said anything about McFadden turning.   I said he lifted him, which you seem to be admitting to.   However in a later post you are saying Nolf jumps, so which is it?  

Nolf does duck his head to roll and then he whips the knee, but that's basically at the same time his back is being exposed.    Because of that, this isn't comparable to a crotch lift IMO, because of how McFadden lifts Nolf.  I think a better comparison would be if someone got headlocked but then rolled through.   How would that be scored in freestyle?

I watched the majority of the linked videos yesterday.   Don't have time now but will double check to see if there were any I didn't watch.  As you admitted to and I agree with, in the McFadden match, this was basically all one motion.  Several of the other videos seemed to be a separate motion where he pauses while his head is on the mat.   And while his head is on the mat, he is often perpendicular to the mat and not exposing his back which was not the case in the McFadden match.

 

 

It's both. Nolf baits McFadden into splitting the middle by stepping his free leg over the top of McFadden's head, giving him the lifting position. As soon as McFadden begins to lift, Nolf jumps over top and shifts his hips into that perpendicular position. That's how baiting works. I've watched him do this dozens of times. As soon as McFadden gets to the leg, he's thinking winn dixie.

It's not comparable at all to a headlock. In that scenario, the offensive wrestler intends to expose the defensive wrestler, so he gets points by successfully doing so. McFadden was not trying to expose Nolf. He was only isolating the leg to come out the back door. This is exactly what Nolf baits him into doing. The only reason Nolf exposes is because he initiates the roll. Without it, he stays draped over top, unexposed, like most wrestlers would.

Whether or not Nolf pauses at all is completely dependent on whether the offensive wrestler pauses before reaching across to isolate the leg, as the technique videos will show you. The reason this was closer to one motion is because McFadden didn't hesitate to reach across, so Nolf immediately whipped him through in the complete opposite direction he was trying to turn (all you should need to see to figure this one out). Nolf doesn't just whip anybody who splits the middle. They have to reach across first. This video already linked earlier today will explain it very clearly.

 

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

It's both. Nolf baits McFadden into splitting the middle by stepping his free leg over the top of McFadden's head, giving him the lifting position. As soon as McFadden begins to lift, Nolf jumps over top and shifts his hips into that perpendicular position. That's how baiting works. I've watched him do this dozens of times. As soon as McFadden gets to the leg, he's thinking winn dixie.

It's not comparable at all to a headlock. In that scenario, the offensive wrestler intends to expose the defensive wrestler, so he gets points by successfully doing so. McFadden was not trying to expose Nolf. He was only isolating the leg to come out the back door. This is exactly what Nolf baits him into doing. The only reason Nolf exposes is because he initiates the roll. Without it, he stays draped over top, unexposed, like most wrestlers would.

Whether or not Nolf pauses at all is completely dependent on whether the offensive wrestler pauses before reaching across to isolate the leg, as the technique videos will show you. The reason this was closer to one motion is because McFadden didn't hesitate to reach across, so Nolf immediately whipped him through in the complete opposite direction he was trying to turn (all you should need to see to figure this one out). Nolf doesn't just whip anybody who splits the middle. They have to reach across first. This video already linked earlier today will explain it very clearly.

 

No need to post the same link 3 times...

The CMU match was clearly Nolf's move.  I think the Lehigh match is somewhat comparable, but again arguable in that I could see some saying 2 for Humphreys first in freestyle.  

Any videos of him (or anyone for that matter) hitting it in freestyle?

I know what Nolf is doing, I think the question is when exactly can you consider him "initiating it"?    If he's baiting, then by definition it's a counter to the other wrestler's move, and McFadden doesn't reach across (and thus that's when Nolf whips him over) until about the same time Nolf's head is hitting the mat and his back is being exposed.

Check out this video (in the bottom right corner).  I know this is a different situation (countering a double), but I think similar in the sense that the other wrestler has started attempting his finish, but Nolf just continues it by rolling.  How should this be scored in freestyle?

 

Edited by 1032004

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59 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

No need to post the same link 3 times...

The CMU match was clearly Nolf's move.  I think the Lehigh match is somewhat comparable, but again arguable in that I could see some saying 2 for Humphreys first in freestyle.  

Any videos of him (or anyone for that matter) hitting it in freestyle?

I know what Nolf is doing, I think the question is when exactly can you consider him "initiating it"?    If he's baiting, then by definition it's a counter to the other wrestler's move, and McFadden doesn't reach across (and thus that's when Nolf whips him over) until about the same time Nolf's head is hitting the mat and his back is being exposed.

Check out this video (in the bottom right corner).  I know this is a different situation (countering a double), but I think similar in the sense that the other wrestler has started attempting his finish, but Nolf just continues it by rolling.  How should this be scored in freestyle?

 

This is going to be my last response, but I can't believe we're even watching the same video at this point. For the hundredth time, the only reason Nolf ever exposes at all is because he initiates the roll. McFadden did not put him towards his back at all. In fact, he's leaning forward away from Nolf because he's still reaching to secure the leg when Nolf leg whips him. You would have an argument if McFadden had actually been sitting back tilting Nolf towards exposure, but he isn't. 

For whatever reason, it's not letting me upload a screenshot, but Nolf initiates the move as soon as he shifts himself perpendicular to McFadden which is well before he exposes. His chest is completely parallel to the mat.

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Practically speaking, it doesn’t matter that Nolf initiated the move because it is going to be consistently scored this way every time. This is international freestyle not domestic folk style, and like it or not this is going to be the call at least 9 out of 10 times. He will adjust accordingly I’m sure.

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It's surprising how many on this board can't wrap their head around freestyle scoring. As others have mentioned with chest wraps and crotch lifts, if the defensive wrestler stops the initial scoring attempt of the offensive wrestler, or changes their direction, the defensive wrestler will get the points. We had a similar debate about the Yianni/Retherford matches where people didn't understand why Yianni was getting exposure points on his crotch lifts. I didn't see the Nolf match, but it's clear some folks don't understand how the defensive wrestler can score exposure points.

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31 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

 I didn't see the Nolf match, but it's clear some folks don't understand how the defensive wrestler can score exposure points.

This is the sequence in question (posted earlier in the thread).  What do you think?

 

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

This is the sequence in question (posted earlier in the thread).  What do you think?

 

Ah, thanks for posting so I didn't have to dig through the whole thread. That's 2 for Nolf and I don't know why there would be any question about it.

Edited by Crotalus

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1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

It was scored 2 for McFadden, 2 for Nolf. The debate is whether McFadden should have gotten 2.

Thanks for that info, as well. I think giving McFadden 2 is the wrong call there. I do see it similar to a crotch lift or chest wrap situation. You can expose your own back while countering. If McFadden had held him on his back for a moment, before getting rolled, I could see a call for 2 and 2.

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A person named Matt Holt (Greco ladder guy) on sherdog actually posted about how he learned that Nolf roll from old school Iranians (if I recall correctly) when it was shown first over there awhile back

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On 9/22/2020 at 9:49 AM, bnwtwg said:

That was not a bad call. That is a great example to show at the kids club level to teach the scoring difference and positional awareness between freestyle and folkstyle.

 

On 9/23/2020 at 6:43 PM, bnwtwg said:

Practically speaking, it doesn’t matter that Nolf initiated the move because it is going to be consistently scored this way every time. This is international freestyle not domestic folk style, and like it or not this is going to be the call at least 9 out of 10 times. He will adjust accordingly I’m sure.

all these pages and the above is the only thing that really matters...

poor freestyle technique to expose your own back...

it is amazing freestyle technique do those types of things without exposing your own back...

don't like it?

stick to the stall fest...

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It’s interesting to speculate how if it had been Satiev, who hit the move and showed “creativity” and not Nolf who hit the move. How it would be interpreted.. and more importantly. Perceived. Especially considering the one person I know of who had actually seen the specific technique before said he learned it overseas in Iran(or maybe from an ex pat).

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

 

all these pages and the above is the only thing that really matters...

poor freestyle technique to expose your own back...

it is amazing freestyle technique do those types of things without exposing your own back...

don't like it?

stick to the stall fest...

A good gut wrench isn't poor freestyle technique.

(Yes I edited within a minute, decided to make a statement instead of ask a question)

Edited by Lurker

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12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

A good gut wrench isn't poor freestyle technique.

(Yes I edited within a minute, decided to make a statement instead of ask a question)

wanting to compare what nolf did to anything in par terre is just trying to be difficult...

 

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9 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

was Massa's chest wrap in which he nearly-pinned-himself-but-got-the-call-to-win-the-match good FS technique.

LJB needs banned simply for being stupid. 

post less. 

shouldn't you be making an ass of yourself on the twitter?

run along now...

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15 minutes ago, LJB said:

wanting to compare what nolf did to anything in par terre is just trying to be difficult...

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, my point is there are a number of good freestyle techniques, whether it be a gutwrench in par terre, or maybe a better comparison in terms of a counter would be a pinch front headlock, where the technique includes exposing your own back.

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

I'm not trying to be difficult, my point is there are a number of good freestyle techniques, whether it be a gutwrench in par terre, or maybe a better comparison in terms of a counter would be a pinch front headlock, where the technique includes exposing your own back.

feet to back is specifically mentioned in the rules...

par terre is specifically mentioned in the rules... remeber auto touche...

he exposed his own back... the fact that it worked doesn't excuse it...

no one would ever teach that as a free technique because of the scoring of free... 

it is the same reason why you don't see leg passing in free like you do in folk... it exposes your back... you give up points...

when we do see a form of a leg pass where the ath;lete does not expose his back we all oooh and aaaahhh and call them a wizard...

why?

because thems the rules...

again...

don't like it, stick to the stall fest...

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

feet to back is specifically mentioned in the rules...

par terre is specifically mentioned in the rules... remeber auto touche...

he exposed his own back... the fact that it worked doesn't excuse it...

no one would ever teach that as a free technique because of the scoring of free... 

it is the same reason why you don't see leg passing in free like you do in folk... it exposes your back... you give up points...

when we do see a form of a leg pass where the ath;lete does not expose his back we all oooh and aaaahhh and call them a wizard...

why?

because thems the rules...

again...

don't like it, stick to the stall fest...

Who said I didn't like it?  And I am more than aware of the rules. Just making the point that there are plenty of techniques that are not only good freestyle techniques, but also executed exposing your own back.  That cannot be argued, at least not logically or without moving the goal posts from your original statement. (Not to mention the part that you know I'm not a "stall fest" kind of guy, so there's nothing there for me to stick with there)

Have a good day.

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