Big 10 Football is back on

[Lurker 1,382]

12 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

In soccer, there are 11x as many opposing players on the playing surface who could potentially expose someone to disease as wrestling would.  However, soccer does has the benefit of being outside.

The outside is the big thing.  You do have alot more players but you also have a lot bigger playing surface.  when you factor in the space the 'ratio' is a lot closer, you also have consistent body to body contact in wrestling, sweating directly on each other, etc.

I don't know that soccer is a good metric to use to see how wrestling might go.  Basketball would be much closer a comparison in my opinion, as far as scholastic sports go.

[gimpeltf 1,475]

49 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Hasn't soccer started now at some of the same conferences playing football?  If they can play soccer without much issue, I think they can wrestle.

Seriously?

Soccer is mostly zone defense. They do approach each other but very little face-to-face. More of that in basketball.

[AHamilton 461]

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

The outside is the big thing.  You do have alot more players but you also have a lot bigger playing surface.  when you factor in the space the 'ratio' is a lot closer, you also have consistent body to body contact in wrestling, sweating directly on each other, etc.

I don't know that soccer is a good metric to use to see how wrestling might go.  Basketball would be much closer a comparison in my opinion, as far as scholastic sports go.

Sweating?

[Lurker 1,382]

Just now, AHamilton said:

Sweating?

?

[AHamilton 461]

7 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Seriously?

Soccer is mostly zone defense. They do approach each other but very little face-to-face. More of that in basketball.

I'm not thinking soccer is a  huge risk, but they do more than "approach" each other.

[AHamilton 461]

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

?

I don't think Covid is spread from sweat to sweat gland. I could be wrong.

[gimpeltf 1,475]

4 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I'm not thinking soccer is a  huge risk, but they do more than "approach" each other.

The point is not for any length of time. I don't understand your analogy. The point of wrestling is to be in touch most of the time with one or both sets of breathing apparatus facing the other guy.

[AHamilton 461]

Just now, gimpeltf said:

The point is not for any length of time. I don't understand your analogy. The point of wrestling is to be in touch most of the time with one or both sets of breathing apparatus facing the other guy.

You don't understand what analogy? Soccer does more than approach people, though it may be brief.  I have seen a few games and yes, even played it. I also wrestled, so I understand that.  

I was just explaining the argument for why soccer could be more dangerous than wrestling.  It was not my argument, it was an argument that I had heard from a credible (but biased)  source.  I fully agree that the fact that it is played outdoors on a larger surface brings reduced risk.

[AHamilton 461]

An interesting thing to note about wrestling:  I know that a lot of states (maybe all?) do not even consider you a contact, for the purpose of contact tracing, unless you have been in close proximity to an infected person for at least 15 minutes.  

Now I am not saying that you cannot catch the disease in less than 15 minutes.  I am just saying that is an interesting fact... you could have a wrestling match against someone and not even be considered a contact.  I believe that a typical college match lasts around nine minutes of real time?

[gimpeltf 1,475]

1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

You don't understand what analogy? Soccer does more than approach people, though it may be brief.  I have seen a few games and yes, even played it. I also wrestled, so I understand that.  

I was just explaining the argument for why soccer could be more dangerous than wrestling.  It was not my argument, it was an argument that I had heard from a credible (but biased)  source.  I fully agree that the fact that it is played outdoors on a larger surface brings reduced risk.

Again, there's no comparison between the sports in this regard. Covid is mainly passed by breathing out and generally seems to require prolonged close contact. I haven't heard anyone say you get it the instant you break the 6 foot barrier. I have played Ultimate (frisbee) for decades and it is likely more covid dangerous than soccer. It's played mostly man-to-man so when running you run alongside your opponent. If you have the disc and are throwing your defender marks you by standing right in front of you face to face for up to around 10 seconds. The few times we've played these last few months we wear masks (not easy but...) and generally play more relaxed defense. And I wouldn't put Ultimate in the same category here as wrestling where you might be face to face for minutes without a mask.

[gimpeltf 1,475]

1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

An interesting thing to note about wrestling:  I know that a lot of states (maybe all?) do not even consider you a contact, for the purpose of contact tracing, unless you have been in close proximity to an infected person for at least 15 minutes.  

Now I am not saying that you cannot catch the disease in less than 15 minutes.  I am just saying that is an interesting fact... you could have a wrestling match against someone and not even be considered a contact.  I believe that a typical college match lasts around nine minutes of real time?

This is more where I was going with the soccer analogy to wrestling. That is interesting though about some places not counting a wrestling match as criteria to be a contact.

[AHamilton 461]

1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

Again, there's no comparison between the sports in this regard. Covid is mainly passed by breathing out and generally seems to require prolonged close contact. I haven't heard anyone say you get it the instant you break the 6 foot barrier. I have played Ultimate (frisbee) for decades and it is likely more covid dangerous than soccer. It's played mostly man-to-man so when running you run alongside your opponent. If you have the disc and are throwing your defender marks you by standing right in front of you face to face for up to around 10 seconds. The few times we've played these last few months we wear masks (not easy but...) and generally play more relaxed defense. And I wouldn't put Ultimate in the same category here as wrestling where you might be face to face for minutes without a mask.

Well, at least Ultimate is up and running!

[AHamilton 461]

2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

This is more where I was going with the soccer analogy to wrestling. That is interesting though about some places not counting a wrestling match as criteria to be a contact.

No OT and no challenges though!

[gimpeltf 1,475]

1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

Well, at least Ultimate is up and running!

Very limited though. So far a couple of pickup games is all. I used to be able to play as often as 4-5 times a week here in the Lehigh Valley if my knees held up. But the local leagues have shut down for the year other than to encourage playing disc golf for a while. Going to try again this afternoon.

[Lurker 1,382]

31 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I don't think Covid is spread from sweat to sweat gland. I could be wrong.

Yeah don't know really.  Just seems like there's potential of any kind of transmission with body fluids.  

[jchapman 1,070]

The Illinois Department of Public Health puts soccer in the "Medium" risk category and has wrestling in the "Higher" risk category.  This is being used by the high school association (IHSA) to guide sports policy.

[AHamilton 461]

Hopkins says "no" to spreading via sweat.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-frequently-asked-questions

[1032004 809]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

The outside is the big thing.  You do have alot more players but you also have a lot bigger playing surface.  when you factor in the space the 'ratio' is a lot closer, you also have consistent body to body contact in wrestling, sweating directly on each other, etc.

I don't know that soccer is a good metric to use to see how wrestling might go.  Basketball would be much closer a comparison in my opinion, as far as scholastic sports go.

I was more talking about soccer in terms of it being a non-revenue sport and the fact that they’re playing despite the additional covid-related costs.  I’m sure they’ll try to play basketball too but that’s the other money-maker.

Yes, soccer has the advantage of being outside and less physical contact (but more people on the same field at once), but the wrestling season wouldn’t start for another 3.5 months so I think we have time to see how things go if classroom instruction happens (although to be honest I don’t know if many major schools are doing in-person this semester?), continued monitoring of college dorms, etc. as far as indoor activities.

Edited September 18, 2020 by 1032004

[Lurker 1,382]

16 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

An interesting thing to note about wrestling:  I know that a lot of states (maybe all?) do not even consider you a contact, for the purpose of contact tracing, unless you have been in close proximity to an infected person for at least 15 minutes.  

Now I am not saying that you cannot catch the disease in less than 15 minutes.  I am just saying that is an interesting fact... you could have a wrestling match against someone and not even be considered a contact.  I believe that a typical college match lasts around nine minutes of real time?

This is true.  I run a few athletic facilities and we have had a number of cases since we started reopening things (no outbreaks though).  And yes the 15 minutes is a factor, but there other factors regarding within that fifteen minutes.  Haven't come across a wrestling case yet but having gone through the tracing process a few times I have to think it would be considered a contact.  A big factor in that fifteen minutes is whether or not masks were worn. 

[gimpeltf 1,475]

Since this can has been opened, I wonder whether a prolonged practice would be considered more problematic than a single match in a dual or a tournament. I don't just mean some bureaucrat's idea but in reality. If you are in a tournament you are faced with more chances but less time. In a practice you (depending on how it is run) probably have fewer chances but more time. One of the things we've been telling people is to limit partners at practice. Obviously, zero partners produces the best chance of not being infected but given that people are going to workout and given the likelihood that the kids will look out for each other it might help.

[TobusRex 1,826]

22 hours ago, Lurker said:

Okay well I never said that so... what I was responding to you about was your saying it was never discussed. I didn’t follow your conversation with him. 
 

What was this “disbelief of something you hold true comment” all about? 

Seemed to me like you were being insulting to me and I took it as being because I contradicted your opinion.

[1032004 809]

3 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Since this can has been opened, I wonder whether a prolonged practice would be considered more problematic than a single match in a dual or a tournament. I don't just mean some bureaucrat's idea but in reality. If you are in a tournament you are faced with more chances but less time. In a practice you (depending on how it is run) probably have fewer chances but more time. One of the things we've been telling people is to limit partners at practice. Obviously, zero partners produces the best chance of not being infected but given that people are going to workout and given the likelihood that the kids will look out for each other it might help.

Eh, I feel like you know the kids on the team are probably going to be around each other outside of practice, so I feel like practice doesn't necessarily need to be that different, particularly if they are getting tested pretty often.  Maybe shorten it a bit so it's only 1-1.5 hours max and do more cardio outside if needed.  I could however see teams maybe making cuts and having less "room guys" on the roster this year, because they may not want to have Joe 4th Stringer get covid from a party and then infect the whole team (and of course it would also be less expensive for tests the less guys on the roster).    In theory your top guys will probably be more serious about the precautions.  Yes you may have a few covid FF's, but let's be honest, most coaches don't care about duals anyway.

But I think what you said is more evidence for having primarily duals (in & out in a couple hours) vs. all-day tournaments.

[wrestlingnerd 2,585]

The 15 minute "rule" is a blunt heuristic for normal interactions. Wrestling is not normal. You are frequently out of breath and not merely breaking the 6-ft rule ("close contact") but actually touching each other and breathing heavily either at or on each other. That 15-minute notion cannot be a serious consideration for the NCAA or other academic or athletic governing body. Very sport-dependent. 

I hope wrestling comes back soon for selfish reasons but its relative safety with regard to COVID is absolutely not a good reason. I do think daily antigen testing with RT-PCR confirmation of positive antigen readings is cheaper for wrestling than many sports, but still prohibitively expensive for all but a handful of programs unless someone other than the wrestling program is going to pick up the cost.

[1032004 809]

Is it out of the question to wear masks while wrestling?   Obviously different but some baseball players in particular are wearing them even while playing.  Apparently even under armour is making masks now...

Could also wear them under one of those Hannibal Lecter headgear 

Edited September 19, 2020 by 1032004

[AHamilton 461]

15 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

The 15 minute "rule" is a blunt heuristic for normal interactions. Wrestling is not normal. You are frequently out of breath and not merely breaking the 6-ft rule ("close contact") but actually touching each other and breathing heavily either at or on each other. That 15-minute notion cannot be a serious consideration for the NCAA or other academic or athletic governing body. Very sport-dependent. 

I hope wrestling comes back soon for selfish reasons but its relative safety with regard to COVID is absolutely not a good reason. I do think daily antigen testing with RT-PCR confirmation of positive antigen readings is cheaper for wrestling than many sports, but still prohibitively expensive for all but a handful of programs unless someone other than the wrestling program is going to pick up the cost.

I agree with you.  But I started this tangent by noting that in at least one of the states in which I work, a wrestling match would not be considered a contact which I would have to report in the case of a positive test.