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Flo US Freestyle Rankings

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I don’t believe exhibition matches without weigh ins should be considered for rankings (with the obvious caveat that rankings don’t really matter). Colon vs Gross was exciting, but what did those guys weigh? Has either of them made 57kg for a two day weigh in yet? At least the NLWC event had weight classes that were publicly known, though I guess we don’t know for sure that everyone made weight.

 

Nickal and Dieringer is another one where I have questions. Bo has not wrestled 86kg (though 190 is pretty darn close), while Dieringer won Bill Farrell and beat Martin. How much stock should we put in a 1-1 exhibition that wasn’t at the weight where they are ranked?

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2 hours ago, IronChef said:

 

I don’t believe exhibition matches without weigh ins should be considered for rankings (with the obvious caveat that rankings don’t really matter). Colon vs Gross was exciting, but what did those guys weigh? Has either of them made 57kg for a two day weigh in yet? At least the NLWC event had weight classes that were publicly known, though I guess we don’t know for sure that everyone made weight.

 

Nickal and Dieringer is another one where I have questions. Bo has not wrestled 86kg (though 190 is pretty darn close), while Dieringer won Bill Farrell and beat Martin. How much stock should we put in a 1-1 exhibition that wasn’t at the weight where they are ranked?

 

Martin beat Ringer last time they wrestled. 

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8 hours ago, IronChef said:

 

I don’t believe exhibition matches without weigh ins should be considered for rankings (with the obvious caveat that rankings don’t really matter). Colon vs Gross was exciting, but what did those guys weigh? Has either of them made 57kg for a two day weigh in yet? At least the NLWC event had weight classes that were publicly known, though I guess we don’t know for sure that everyone made weight.

 

Nickal and Dieringer is another one where I have questions. Bo has not wrestled 86kg (though 190 is pretty darn close), while Dieringer won Bill Farrell and beat Martin. How much stock should we put in a 1-1 exhibition that wasn’t at the weight where they are ranked?

 

Not sure how far back we're going with results, but Bo wrestled 86kg at the 2017 US open (beating Downey, but losing to Heflin and Perry).

How many days of weigh ins was the Bill Farrell where Gross won (beating Suriano, Cruz and Tomasello)?   Although if you're using the Gross/Colon match then you probably have to use Colon/Suriano but then Gross beat Suriano.

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Right. I'm more concerned with putting Bo in there where he is. If Martin won the last matchup with Dieringer, then he is in the right spot, though I might argue that Dieringer going 1-1 with Nickal a few weeks after a clearly out of shape Martin got worked by Taylor showed that Dieringer should be ahead of him. However, I don't think these exhibition matches should count for rankings. In an earlier set of rankings, Colon's loss to Suriano at BTS was used as an inarguable reason to put Suriano ahead, but it was another no-weight exhibition.

Farrell was a one day event. Gross was impressive there for sure, but he only had to weigh in once.

I won't mind using Flo's 195 lb. bracket for rankings, as long as everyone has to weigh in and regular freestyle rules are used. It's really close to 86kg plus a 2kg allowance.

Edited by IronChef

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On 9/25/2020 at 6:56 AM, IronChef said:

 

I don’t believe exhibition matches without weigh ins should be considered for rankings (with the obvious caveat that rankings don’t really matter). Colon vs Gross was exciting, but what did those guys weigh? Has either of them made 57kg for a two day weigh in yet? At least the NLWC event had weight classes that were publicly known, though I guess we don’t know for sure that everyone made weight.

 

Nickal and Dieringer is another one where I have questions. Bo has not wrestled 86kg (though 190 is pretty darn close), while Dieringer won Bill Farrell and beat Martin. How much stock should we put in a 1-1 exhibition that wasn’t at the weight where they are ranked?

 

So Flo takes the results of Exhibitions matches into account when they rank Freestyle, but don't take into account the results of official NCAA matches (E.G. Desanto tap out) when ranking college?

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52 minutes ago, jchapman said:

So Flo takes the results of Exhibitions matches into account when they rank Freestyle, but don't take into account the results of official NCAA matches (E.G. Desanto tap out) when ranking college?

first period injury defaults aren't considered in any rankings on Flo, high school, college or international. we've been consistent with that approach since before i started working at Flo and we were not going to change it for one high profile match. apologies for rehashing a tired topic but that's the explanation for the DeSanto/RBY match not being factored into last year's NCAA rankings.

We've also always counted matches from the All-Star Classic, but they were  the only 'unofficial' results I can remember using for NCAA rankings. If the event returns, or if something similar to it occurs, we'll probably count them again, but it will also depend on the specific circumstances.

Freestyle is different, there is basically no 'official' season. If there were more events to rely on for results we would probably be factoring in these pro-card events in less, but extraordinary times call for extraordinary ranking criteria. There hasn't been much to go on since Senior Nationals of December 2019, so we need to be looser with our criteria. Beat the Streets had weigh ins, by the way, it just wasn't scratch and wasn't publicized. I never got the actual weights from Gross and Colon but they both made an agreed to weight and both plan on going 57 for the Olympic trials so we counted the result for domestic rankings. USA Wrestling will likely not factor it in for seeding, although I'm not 100% positive on that either. 

Sorry for the long answer but the short answer is 'no, because it's more complicated than that!'

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15 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

first period injury defaults aren't considered in any rankings on Flo, high school, college or international. we've been consistent with that approach since before i started working at Flo and we were not going to change it for one high profile match. apologies for rehashing a tired topic but that's the explanation for the DeSanto/RBY match not being factored into last year's NCAA rankings.

We've also always counted matches from the All-Star Classic, but they were  the only 'unofficial' results I can remember using for NCAA rankings. If the event returns, or if something similar to it occurs, we'll probably count them again, but it will also depend on the specific circumstances.

Freestyle is different, there is basically no 'official' season. If there were more events to rely on for results we would probably be factoring in these pro-card events in less, but extraordinary times call for extraordinary ranking criteria. There hasn't been much to go on since Senior Nationals of December 2019, so we need to be looser with our criteria. Beat the Streets had weigh ins, by the way, it just wasn't scratch and wasn't publicized. I never got the actual weights from Gross and Colon but they both made an agreed to weight and both plan on going 57 for the Olympic trials so we counted the result for domestic rankings. USA Wrestling will likely not factor it in for seeding, although I'm not 100% positive on that either. 

Sorry for the long answer but the short answer is 'no, because it's more complicated than that!'

How does Flo handle first period defaults in exhibition Freestyle matches?  ;)

Edited by jchapman

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I would like to know what weight matches occurred at if they are going to be used for rankings, especially in a case like Colon and Gross, where both guys have consistently wrestled above the weight where they are ranked. Like it or not, making weight is part of the sport, and how effectively wrestlers do it affects their performance. I don't believe either of them has made 57 for a two day weigh in. Gross was at Farrell and Colon was at Matteo Pellicone, but both of those are one day events. 

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1 hour ago, IronChef said:

I would like to know what weight matches occurred at if they are going to be used for rankings, especially in a case like Colon and Gross, where both guys have consistently wrestled above the weight where they are ranked. Like it or not, making weight is part of the sport, and how effectively wrestlers do it affects their performance. I don't believe either of them has made 57 for a two day weigh in. Gross was at Farrell and Colon was at Matteo Pellicone, but both of those are one day events. 

for sure, ideally we'd have regular competitions with high level of participation with standardized rules but unfortunately there have been vanishingly few of them over the last 9 months. there's definitely a lot more art than science to the current rankings than we'd prefer but its either work with what we've got or don't have rankings, and if you prefer the latter then everyone still has the option to completely ignore the rankings that we did do. 

I'm not sure I agree that 2 day weigh-ins are all that important as to what gets counted in freestyle rankings. the NCAA tournament is the only event on the calendar with 3-day weigh ins but we obviously factor in results from 1 and 2 day events for the college rankings.

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