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Can Dake win 4 titles at 4 weights?

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a tad off topic but speaking of frazier I think it's was his manager yancy " yank" dutham who acually called the fight, it may have been on eddie futch's advice. frazier so under rated, he would have wrecked tyson in a in their primes match.

I've seen several references that Yank Durham stopped the Thrilla in Manila - but he died two years before that fight. Agree with you that Frazier is generally under-rated, BTW.

 

At about 6:05 of the below highlight video, you can see Eddie Futch waving it off.

 

.

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We can talk about what if's all day long about countless topics can't we? Mario Lemiux (sp?) could have been the greatest hockey player of all time had he not been diagnosed with cancer. Unfortunately, he was diagnosed. Also, you never know. Some people peak early, some late. I'm a huge boxing fan and I remember Terry Norris who had a number of losses during the early part of his career. Toward the middle and later points of his career he was considered one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world. Some guys, like Donald Curry was seen as the next best thing and got KO'd by Mike McCallum and Curry was never the same again. The point is just because Caldwell had a great season during his Jr. year doesn't mean that he would have kept up that momentum OR that nobody else would have risen up just like he did when he was a Jr. All that is being talked about here is pure SPECULATION. That is it. Sorry, but speculation doesn't count of your record. Upsets happen as well. The Colts lost to the Jets with Namath (Supuer Bowl 3), The United States Hockey Team defeated the Russians in 1980 (Miracle on Ice), Rulon Gardner beats Alexander Karelin (2000 Olympics), Appalacian St. beat Michiagan, Tyson lost to Douglas, I mean I can go on. So please with this notion that Caldwell would have DEFINETLY defeated Dake. We just don't know. Upsets happen all the time. BTW, I wish Caldwell all the best, God Bless you man aand I hope he will get to represent the US internationally.

 

Consider Caldwell hasn't lost since his sophomore year, except for 2 injury defaults 1 this year, and 2 years ago, I have seen nothing to see him regress. Caldwell if he was healthy would not have lost to Dake period, he's still a level or two above anything Dake has reached yet, but the reality is if Caldwell hadn't been hurt, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because Metcalf would have been a 1x'r.

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a tad off topic but speaking of frazier I think it's was his manager yancy " yank" dutham who acually called the fight, it may have been on eddie futch's advice. frazier so under rated, he would have wrecked tyson in a in their primes match.

 

I don't think so. I agree, Frazier is underrated but the only chance he would have had against Tyson would be in the late rounds of a 15 round fight and I doubt it would have lasted that long. I think Frazier could have easily been a light heavy and would have done fine against the Spinks brothers and Hollyfield but Tyson too strong. Larry Holmes would have picked Frazier apart too.

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Also, a superheavyweight like Lennox Lewis would thrash Frazier. Similarly to his match against Tyson, Lewis holds a 12-inch reach advantage, 5 1/2 inches in height and about 40 pounds on Frazier. Lewis was a late bloomer, but he's pretty underrated too in my opinion. I don't necessarily consider him a better fighter than Frazier as comparing such different sized heavies isn't a fair comparison in my opinion.

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a tad off topic but speaking of frazier I think it's was his manager yancy " yank" dutham who acually called the fight, it may have been on eddie futch's advice. frazier so under rated, he would have wrecked tyson in a in their primes match.

I've seen several references that Yank Durham stopped the Thrilla in Manila - but he died two years before that fight. Agree with you that Frazier is generally under-rated, BTW.

 

At about 6:05 of the below highlight video, you can see Eddie Futch waving it off.

 

.

 

 

 

Heart of a lion, that's why it's considered boxings golden age, you see the size of Fraziers neck and his head movement, I'm sorry, man, these two would annihilate anyone in the heavy weight ranks in this era, and as bad as M. Tyson was I don't know if he would beat them, then again, a young focused mike tyson was the fastest, hardest hitting heavy weight their ever was, but he just didn't have the heart these two had, I think if Tyson hadn't lost Cus D'amato he could have been the greatest ever. The guy was the epitome of intimidation but his heart just never caught up. He was a student of the game and focused under Cus, a person with singular purpose and that was to destroy everything he touched.

 

 

 

Look at his speed

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a tad off topic but speaking of frazier I think it's was his manager yancy " yank" dutham who acually called the fight, it may have been on eddie futch's advice. frazier so under rated, he would have wrecked tyson in a in their primes match.

I've seen several references that Yank Durham stopped the Thrilla in Manila - but he died two years before that fight. Agree with you that Frazier is generally under-rated, BTW.

 

At about 6:05 of the below highlight video, you can see Eddie Futch waving it off.

 

.

 

 

 

Heart of a lion, that's why it's considered boxings golden age, you see the size of Fraziers neck and his head movement, I'm sorry, man, these two would annihilate anyone in the heavy weight ranks in this era, and as bad as M. Tyson was I don't know if he would beat them, then again, a young focused mike tyson was the fastest, hardest hitting heavy weight their ever was, but he just didn't have the heart these two had, I think if Tyson hadn't lost Cus D'amato he could have been the greatest ever. The guy was the epitome of intimidation but his heart just never caught up. He was a student of the game and focused under Cus, a person with singular purpose and that was to destroy everything he touched.

 

 

 

Look at his speed

 

You said it yourself, " Tyson was the fastest, hardest hitting , HW there ever was " and I agree with you 100%. Frazier would have fought the good fight but I think got KOed in 6. No doubt the 70s and early 80s was the golden age of boxing, particularly in the HW division. I think any one of the top 10 of that era would thrash the current crop. I don't believe any of today's roided russians could take a Shaver's punch or deal with a young Forman. Like to see the outcome of Klitchco and his ilk going toe to toe with Lyle like Forman did. MMA has taken off because todays boxing sucks. Blame the promoters.

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That is interesting when Larry Holmes ranks 3rd behind Johnson and Ali, when we know dayum well Holmes would have been destroyed by know less the Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Tyson .. oh wait, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis and that's just my we know for sure list. Yes, he beat a 40 year old punch drunk Ali, but Tyson returned the favor and he did it in about 1:36, we all know Ali got robbed of his prime, and still won 3 titles after the age of 30, people don't realize that Ali's notable years came after he was robbed of his prime. Anyway, Holmes to me is like Pat Smith, yes, great in terms of records and books but put him against the "all time greats" and it's a case non-mistaken a$$ whupping.

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Unfortunately, MANY of you didnt spend your teen years in the '70s- and are speaking out of what your read or perceive to be TRUTHS- more or less is..OPINION.

 

mid- '70s through the mid '80s WE had a very dynamic culture that favored CONTACT Sports- CREATIVE entertainment- and wasnt ashamed of telling it "the way it IS"...Today, the culture has rendered a "puzzy" mentality- inclusive of TYPE II Diabetes- PLAGERISM- and social eneptism.

 

SAME SPORTS- different animals !!!

........................

 

Guys such as Dave Winfield/ Bo Jackson and many more would be CONSIDERED all world today cause they could do it ALL....Very similar to a LARGE percentage of athletes during this time period. BTW- technology has changed Sports along with rules etc....Keeping it to this board- I would mind having the mid '70s/'80s wrestlers..wrestling against this pool.

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That is interesting when Larry Holmes ranks 3rd behind Johnson and Ali, when we know dayum well Holmes would have been destroyed by know less the Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Tyson .. oh wait, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis and that's just my we know for sure list. Yes, he beat a 40 year old punch drunk Ali, but Tyson returned the favor and he did it in about 1:36, we all know Ali got robbed of his prime, and still won 3 titles after the age of 30, people don't realize that Ali's notable years came after he was robbed of his prime. Anyway, Holmes to me is like Pat Smith, yes, great in terms of records and books but put him against the "all time greats" and it's a case non-mistaken a$$ whupping.

You may be missreading that chart. Louis and Ali are ranked ahead of Holmes, not Johnson. Plus, the author acknowledges that the chart does not necessarily determine the outcome of individual matches, as styles make fights.

 

That being said, I do think Holmes is usually underrated on such lists, as he had the misfortune to follow Ali and never fought Foreman or Frazier (Joe, not Marvis :P ).

.

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That is interesting when Larry Holmes ranks 3rd behind Johnson and Ali, when we know dayum well Holmes would have been destroyed by know less the Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Tyson .. oh wait, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis and that's just my we know for sure list. Yes, he beat a 40 year old punch drunk Ali, but Tyson returned the favor and he did it in about 1:36, we all know Ali got robbed of his prime, and still won 3 titles after the age of 30, people don't realize that Ali's notable years came after he was robbed of his prime. Anyway, Holmes to me is like Pat Smith, yes, great in terms of records and books but put him against the "all time greats" and it's a case non-mistaken a$$ whupping.

You may be missreading that chart. Louis and Ali are ranked ahead of Holmes, not Johnson. Plus, the author acknowledges that the chart does not necessarily determine the outcome of individual matches, as styles make fights.

 

That being said, I do think Holmes is usually underrated on such lists, as he had the misfortune to follow Ali and never fought Foreman or Frazier (Joe, not Marvis :P ).

.

 

Holmes very underrated. He would have handled Joe Frazier and Marciano.

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I'm sorry, no way Holmes beats Frazier. If Ali barely got through Frazier, and Holmes is no Ali, I just don't see it, at their best, it's close, but Frazier would take it to town on Holmes. As for Marciano forget about it, not since the streets of LA and a young Rodney Kings encounter with the PD, would a white man so thoroughly brutalize a blackman, and this coming from a black guy. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, would file claims of assault, and I'm pretty clear Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther would come back from the grave thinking all their work had been for not. All jokes aside, Holmes isn't beating Marciano, he's top 10 IMHO, and yes, he went 48-0 thru his first 48 pro fights, but he is like Dake forever stained with not having faced any of the other greats (Ali don' count he was 50) , to me he is the Pat Smith, great on paper. But I ain't picking him on my starting 5.

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I'm sorry, no way Holmes beats Frazier. If Ali barely got through Frazier, and Holmes is no Ali, I just don't see it, at their best, it's close, but Frazier would take it to town on Holmes. As for Marciano forget about it, not since the streets of LA and a young Rodney Kings encounter with the PD, would a white man so thoroughly brutalize a blackman, and this coming from a black guy. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, would file claims of assault, and I'm pretty clear Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther would come back from the grave thinking all their work had been for not. All jokes aside, Holmes isn't beating Marciano, he's top 10 IMHO, and yes, he went 48-0 thru his first 48 pro fights, but he is like Dake forever stained with not having faced any of the other greats (Ali don' count he was 50) , to me he is the Pat Smith, great on paper. But I ain't picking him on my starting 5.

 

I think the size difference too great for Marciano to beat Holmes. Ditto with Lennox Lewis. Frazier would have trouble with both of Holmes and Lewis's size too, and Rocky was much smaller than Frazier so he would have struggled even worse. Much as I like Marciano I think he would have only been a top ten guy in boxing's hayday and certainly not undefeated. A Frazier / Marciano fight would have been a bloodbath and likey gone into the 14th or 15th round back then. Slight edge to Frazier being bigger but Rocky could have definetly taken him out if the fight went to the late rounds.

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After his 3rd title he could take a redshirt to bulk up to 165 and win his 4th.

 

 

Since he attends an Ivy League school, he can't take a redshirt. He can use an Olympic RS next year in Greco, but I doubt he does that. Expect him to be at 157 next year, though, you're right on with that.

He can drop out of school and red shirt that way.

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My opinion.....

 

that Dake is prime time and should never be counted out of any match/tournament.

 

Larry Holmes reigned supreme over a salty group of heavies, including Ken Norton ( who truthfully punched out Ali twice, not just once, per Ali's admission), and Earnie Shavers. He would have smashed Tyson's spine through his throat...just like Buster Douglas did, and Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis did. And Holmes would have defeated Joe Frazier- he would have rocked him with the jab. Frazier, however, maxed out what he could do, no question about it....short guy, short arms, wicked hook.

 

Holyfield should NOT ever be ranked over Riddick Bowe- very underrated, and one who could have went with the best- just so strong and you couldn't hurt him. That and the fact that Bowe beat him two out of three.

 

I think the Klitschkos would have knocked out most of the guys on this list.

 

Oh, and Jersey Joe should be ahead of Marciano, given that he was smoking him for most of the match, until the knockout. JJoe was about 143 at the time, and I don't mean pounds.

 

Joe Louis was very tough, but a bit small for modern heavies. Joe and Sonny Liston would have been interesting, but I'm not sure he would have survived a Shavers smash. For sure Dempsey and Marciano would not have went 15 with Ali, Foreman, Lennox, Klitschkos...

 

Check out:

 

www.boxrec.com

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After his 3rd title he could take a redshirt to bulk up to 165 and win his 4th.

 

 

Since he attends an Ivy League school, he can't take a redshirt. He can use an Olympic RS next year in Greco, but I doubt he does that. Expect him to be at 157 next year, though, you're right on with that.

He can drop out of school and red shirt that way.

 

An ORS, gives an additional year (6 years) to get your 4 years in, regarding the NCAA guidelines.

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i believe the way dake wrestles at NCAAs he would have beat caldwell, he always steps it up when he needs too

 

 

And Caldwell doesn't? Let's see, Caldwell was a 3 sport part time, wrestler in HS, did exactly 2 years of FS. He comes in

 

 

True Frosh Q-Finalist (Up 8-3 on AA and eventual runner up in Ryan Lang in the Quarters, if Caldwell was more experienced, he would have sat on that lead and won the match)

 

True Soph, The first year he beat metcalf, by pin, finished 5th, Semi-Finalist, with 29 seconds left gives up escape and TD to Bubba to lose, denying us of what would have been Caldwell-Metcalf II

 

True Jr, get's beat by Metcalf by Tech in All-Star match, which doesn't actually count, destroys the field and NCAA's , and wins every match by Tech, or majro, except Metcalf match where he won almost by Major, beating Metcalf by 5

 

Since has been injured, he's lost exactly 2 matches since his sophomore year, and those were both by injury default.

 

Caldwell has beaten no less than 5 NCAA champs in his career, 3 fo them at NCAA's, a ton of AA's, and generally deemed great wrestlers at NCAA's, but Dake steps it up more than Caldwell??? Dake is great, again, I've never seen him have to go through level of competition that some of the other guys have gone through. Dake hasn't beaten 1 NCAA , let alone 5 NCAA champs in his career, or even multiple ones at NCAA's as Caldwell has done, along with Metcalf, along with Burroughs, so what makes you think his ability to step it up exceeds anyone else that has stood at the podium. Heck, I don't think Dake would have beat Jeff Jaggers, who is the epitome of stepping it up. Who also again had to go through tougher competition. I'm not knocking Dake, I'm just saying.

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Ha! That's OK, as children have many enjoyable pastimes - such as watching cartoons. And speaking of borderlines, here's what may happen to Mr. Leshismore if he ventures too far south of New York (without bringing along a sense of humor). ;)

 

Ok, ok, ok.... so I was a little slow and didn't catch the satire :roll:

 

I just like it when folks "seem" to pick on the kid Dake. I mean, he is a slacker, but still... hasn't done &^%$# yet...

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Jaggers didn't have to go through tougher competition (especially because a freshman/sophomore Russell lost to lesser wrestlers as well at those NCAAs), but I do agree that his performance as a senior in particular was incredibly dominant and clutch. It's obvious that Caldwell has more quality wins in his college career than Dake has in two years. However, elmwrestler seemed to be saying that Dake would beat 2011 Caldwell, who whether you like it or not was a different wrestler than 2009 Caldwell. That's not to say he can't get back to the high level he was before and eventually exceed it, but the Caldwell we saw at NCAAs before the injury would not be favored over the Dake that we saw at NCAAs. That doesn't mean Dake is a better wrestler.

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Ha! That's OK, as children have many enjoyable pastimes - such as watching cartoons. And speaking of borderlines, here's what may happen to Mr. Leshismore if he ventures too far south of New York (without bringing along a sense of humor). ;)

 

> Bugs Bunny cartoon here

Ok, ok, ok.... so I was a little slow and didn't catch the satire :roll:

 

I just like it when folks "seem" to pick on the kid Dake. I mean, he is a slacker, but still... hasn't done &^%$# yet...

No problem - Dake is actually one of my favorites and I'd like to see him win 4 titles - unless it comes at the expense of Penn State or one of their wrestlers (again - ha).

.

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Ha! That's OK, as children have many enjoyable pastimes - such as watching cartoons. And speaking of borderlines, here's what may happen to Mr. Leshismore if he ventures too far south of New York (without bringing along a sense of humor). ;)

 

> Bugs Bunny cartoon here

Ok, ok, ok.... so I was a little slow and didn't catch the satire :roll:

 

I just like it when folks "seem" to pick on the kid Dake. I mean, he is a slacker, but still... hasn't done &^%$# yet...

No problem - Dake is actually one of my favorites and I'd like to see him win 4 titles - unless it comes at the expense of Penn State or one of their wrestlers (again - ha).

.

 

 

And no Ali could not beat 7 of 10!!! At his age, I give 3 of 10, at best!

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