Dake-Taylor observations (long read)

[superold 34]

Anyone else think Dake would have pinned DT had the escape (reversal) occurred center as opposed to edge?

 

Dake had to hold back momentum because of location of action in my opinion.

 

When Dake had Taylor's leg in the air, and control of the head, I thought that a pin or back points was definitely coming. I think Dake very well could have had a shot at locking up a cradle had that sequence taken place in the middle of the mat. After watching these two guys compete 3 or 4 times now, I believe that Dake pinning Taylor is a more likely scenario than Taylor taking a win off Dake.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Anyone else think Dake would have pinned DT had the escape (reversal) occurred center as opposed to edge?

 

Dake had to hold back momentum because of location of action in my opinion.

 

When Dake had Taylor's leg in the air, and control of the head, I thought that a pin or back points was definitely coming. I think Dake very well could have had a shot at locking up a cradle had that sequence taken place in the middle of the mat. After watching these two guys compete 3 or 4 times now, I believe that Dake pinning Taylor is a more likely scenario than Taylor taking a win off Dake.

 

Of course you do. Any one sided fan will see this as the more likely scenario. 3 - 1 point matches but yet a pin is more likely than a Taylor win. Speaks to your credibility.

[PA-Fan 0]

I believe that Dake pinning Taylor is a more likely scenario than Taylor taking a win off Dake.

 

Huh.

[superold 34]

I believe that Dake pinning Taylor is a more likely scenario than Taylor taking a win off Dake.

 

Huh.

 

I don't think they're as close as their scores seem to indicate. Taylor is great, no doubt about it, but I don't subscribe to the "it's so close it can go either way" view when discussing him and Dake. I see it more the way I currently see Stieber/Ramos, where I believe Ramos will ultimately lose in the end.

[superold 34]

Anyone else think Dake would have pinned DT had the escape (reversal) occurred center as opposed to edge?

 

Dake had to hold back momentum because of location of action in my opinion.

 

When Dake had Taylor's leg in the air, and control of the head, I thought that a pin or back points was definitely coming. I think Dake very well could have had a shot at locking up a cradle had that sequence taken place in the middle of the mat. After watching these two guys compete 3 or 4 times now, I believe that Dake pinning Taylor is a more likely scenario than Taylor taking a win off Dake.

 

Of course you do. Any one sided fan will see this as the more likely scenario. 3 - 1 point matches but yet a pin is more likely than a Taylor win. Speaks to your credibility.

 

I'm not one sided. I'm actually somewhat of a PSU fan. I respect the Cornell program, but I don't really follow them closely.

[PA-Fan 0]

 

I don't think they're as close as their scores seem to indicate. Taylor is great, no doubt about it, but I don't subscribe to the "it's so close it can go either way" view when discussing him and Dake. I see it more the way I currently see Stieber/Ramos, where I believe Ramos will ultimately lose in the end.

 

That is all well and good. Stick with whatever opinion you want.

 

But saying that Taylor is more likely to get pinned than to win is something completely ridiculous.

 

In their 3 matches Dake has won by 1 pt each time - and scored 1 single td - and 0 back points (and at no point was he even close). Hell, he didn't even have more riding time in 2 of the three matches!

 

Think all you want that Dake is better...but Taylor getting pinned by Dake before turning around the result when it is clearly that close - come on.

[DSims 1]

Vakattak,

Thanks for the great analysis. I generally hate reading long posts but you did a great job here.

This was one of the few times the an event has lived up to the hype.

[superold 34]

 

I don't think they're as close as their scores seem to indicate. Taylor is great, no doubt about it, but I don't subscribe to the "it's so close it can go either way" view when discussing him and Dake. I see it more the way I currently see Stieber/Ramos, where I believe Ramos will ultimately lose in the end.

 

That is all well and good. Stick with whatever opinion you want.

 

But saying that Taylor is more likely to get pinned than to win is something completely ridiculous.

 

In their 3 matches Dake has won by 1 pt each time - and scored 1 single td - and 0 back points (and at no point was he even close). Hell, he didn't even have more riding time in 2 of the three matches!

 

Think all you want that Dake is better...but Taylor getting pinned by Dake before turning around the result when it is clearly that close - come on.

 

I respect your opinion PA-Fan. For the record, I'm not saying that Taylor couldn't turn the result around, just that I believe that a Dake pin would happen before a Taylor win. Also, I don't necessarily believe a pin would take place with Dake on top, I think the pin would probably come in a scramble in neutral or from Dake starting in the bottom position.

 

Think all you want that Dake is better

 

Is it really still merely an opinion that Dake is better. I think it's a fact. What about you? Do you believe their future matches are tossups?

[PA-Fan 0]

Is it really still merely an opinion that Dake is better. I think it's a fact. What about you? Do you believe their future matches are tossups?

 

That depends on how you want to define "better" (because I think they have the same level of skill). But for simplicity sake Ill just say that Dake is "better" - as in he beat Taylor head to head, multiple times.

 

Do I believe their future matches (in folkstyle - which sadly will never happen) would be toss-ups? Absolutely.

 

Dake is 3-0 against Taylor in folk - but these wins have absolutely no bearing on the next match being a toss-up or not. Their skill sets are basically equal, albeit different, - that is what affects the match being a "toss-up".

 

Would Dake be favored? Absolutely 100% - but that is a totally different question than "Would it be a toss-up?"

[rodneydeeeee 0]

The first match was a Double OT rideout that decided victory.

The second was a very late CLOSE reversal that decided the victory by 1 point.

The third, as decisive as it looked, was still a 1 point victory.

 

The 2 of these kids are SO even when they wrestle. It's WHY the world stops to watch. If people knew the results before they wrestled, WHY TUNE IN?

 

I guarantee freestyle matchups will generate just as much buzz.

 

It takes someone truly 1 sided to sit there and say a pin would come before a David Taylor victory.

 

Call me insane, call me crazy, but I still love David Taylors chances going forward.

[JerseyJoey 25]

I believe that Dake pinning Taylor is a more likely scenario than Taylor taking a win off Dake.

 

Huh.

 

It is actually not that crazy. Taylor got pinned by Dake in freestyle. Taylor got pinned in the NCAAs. Dake never lost in the NCAAs. If the escape-reversal happened in the middle of the mat, Taylor might have gotten pinned. Taylor COULD beat Dake. Maybe. He didn't in 4 tries. But Taylor has already been pinned in the NCAAs and he has already been pinned by Dake.

[MatKid 0]

Dake: I have known Kyle since he was in 8th grade and have seen him in many different arenas of the sport. He always has time for everyone and gives back.

 

I'm glad to read this, because to me Dake comes across as an outstanding wrestler but a jerk in post-match interviews, calling out his (soundly defeated) opponents and complaining about the officiating when he'd just won 13-0. Most other wrestlers aren't that over the top, even right after winning. I'll assume it's just the thrill of victory, and maybe a little persona.

[PA-Fan 0]

It is actually not that crazy.

 

Yes, it is that crazy.

 

Freestyle - totally different so ill just leave it at that.

 

Taylor got pinned in the NCAAs 2 years ago - so that means Dake is more likely to pin him than Taylor is to turn around a 1 pt decision? Righhhttttttttt. I think Dake got pinned once in a summer Greco tournament in HS when he was wrestling up a weight class - so obviously this means Taylor is likely to pin him should they ever meet again! :roll:

[PA-Fan 0]

If the escape happened in the middle Taylor might have gotten pinned? Based on what? Dake didn't even have a pinning combination...he had the inside/top leg and the chin- why would it being in the middle change that into Taylor being pinned? At best maybe it becomes a reversal because he has room to spin behind and stay in bounds - at best. Stop being ridiculous.

 

The statement was: Taylor is more likely to get pinned by Dake than to beat him. - Absolutely Not. Could he get pinned by Dake - sure anything can happen on a wrestling mat. But that was not the idea in question.

[OCGrappler 44]

Taylor has already been pinned by Dake in the past year. Taylor has also been pinned in folksytle more recently than Dake has lost in folkstyle.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Taylor has already been pinned by Dake in the past year. Taylor has also been pinned in folksytle more recently than Dake has lost in folkstyle.

 

Means nothing! There were 3 recent matches by these 2 that points to a Taylor win more so than Dake pinning. As I mentioned, there is a reason why this match was so hyped and probably the most viewed ever. If it's as decisive as you make it sound, what the heck was all the hype for? Taylor pinning 3 people in the tourney makes it more likely that he pins Dake then Dake pins Taylor. See how ridiculous that sounds.

[Chrissn2001 81]

 

The 2 of these kids are SO even when they wrestle. It's WHY the world stops to watch. If people knew the results before they wrestled, WHY TUNE IN?

 

 

 

It takes someone truly 1 sided to sit there and say a pin would come before a David Taylor victory.

 

Call me insane, call me crazy, but I still love David Taylors chances going forward.

 

They get a lot better, now that Dake is graduating!

 

I don't think his pin logic is that far off...about as crazy as you saying they're even.

[Chrissn2001 81]

It is actually not that crazy.

 

Yes, it is that crazy.

 

Freestyle - totally different so ill just leave it at that.

 

:

 

 

Not that different, your ultimate goal is still to pin your opponent.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

They get a lot better, now that Dake is graduating!

 

I don't think his pin logic is that far off...about as crazy as you saying they're even.

 

Obviously it's not what the wrestling world thought; hence the reasoning for EVERYONE, including yourself for tuning in. I will say it again. If we knew who the winner would be, it wouldn't have made it that highly anticipated. F-A-C-T!

[Chrissn2001 81]

I think that the anticipation came from somebody doing something that only 2 other wrestlers have done. I think after the Scuffle, many people accepted Dake as the better wrestler.

[PA-Fan 0]

I think that the anticipation came from somebody doing something that only 2 other wrestlers have done. I think after the Scuffle, many people accepted Dake as the better wrestler.

 

You're right. Nobody thought Taylor (with his 3 career losses - two of them to Dake by 1 pt - and in OT and on a late reversal no less- and one being an exibition) stood any chance of winning. :roll:

[superold 34]

Pa Fan,

 

I respect your decision to discount the freestyle result, but I don't. I've seen Dake beat Taylor now 3 times (4 if you choose to count the exhibition) including one by pin, and I've never seen Taylor beat Dake. In my opinion, bringing up a HS match is very different from bringing up an ncaa finals match that Taylor had against another elite wrestler. Having said that, I didn't really put too much weight on that fact when I made my statement about Dake's chances of pinning Taylor vs Taylor''s chances of beating Dake.

[PA-Fan 0]

Count the freestyle result all you want...you still have no ground to stand on if you say that Dake is more likely to pin Taylor (in a future folkstyle match) than Taylor is to beat Dake.

 

If anything, with how little you expect an elite guy like that to get pinned, the fact that he was already pinned (albeit in freestyle) works against the likelihood of him being pinned in a future match up!

[Chrissn2001 81]

Count the freestyle result all you want...you still have no ground to stand on if you say that Dake is more likely to pin Taylor (in a future folkstyle match) than Taylor is to beat Dake.

 

If anything, with how little you expect an elite guy like that to get pinned, the fact that he was already pinned (albeit in freestyle) works against the likelihood of him being pinned in a future match up!

 

 

, but he was also pinned by a less elite wrestler in folkstyle. The one thing has happened twice and the other has never happened...seems more likely to me...

[superold 34]

Count the freestyle result all you want...you still have no ground to stand on if you say that Dake is more likely to pin Taylor (in a future folkstyle match) than Taylor is to beat Dake.

 

If anything, with how little you expect an elite guy like that to get pinned, the fact that he was already pinned (albeit in freestyle) works against the likelihood of him being pinned in a future match up!

 

I disagree. How can we say Taylor is more likely to beat Dake, than Dake is to pin Taylor, if we haven't seen Taylor ever beat Dake, and Dake pin Taylor?