Dake-Taylor observations (long read)

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Because it happens often.

Nico beat Delgado a few times before turning it around.

McD beat Delgado a few times before turning it around.

Metcalf beat Caldwell a few times before turning it around.

Sanders beat Nico a couple times before turning it around.

 

It happens. Often. No one is saying it would definitely happen with Dake/Taylor (although I feel DT could definitely beat him if he wrestled better under pressure), just saying that type of result is more likely than a pin.

[PA-Fan 0]

, but he was also pinned by a less elite wrestler in folkstyle.

 

"Less elite"? I agree Bubba is not Dake - he is not even David Taylor...but he is still certainly elite - he his an NCAA champion and two time finalist - that puts him up in the elite category. (Not to mention a Junior World Champion). It is not as if Taylor was stuck by the #23 ranked guy in the country.

 

And Im not going to go into why it is less likely to see a Dake pin than a Taylor win again. Everything that needs to be said already has.

[superold 34]

Rodneydeee,

 

True, turnarounds do happen all the time. I'm just saying I'd bet on a Dake pin before a Taylor win. By watching their matches with each other(including freestyle), and their matches with other opponents, I come to this conclusion.

[superold 34]

"Less elite"? I agree Bubba is not Dake - he is not even David Taylor...but he is still certainly elite - he his an NCAA champion and two time finalist - that puts him up in the elite category. (Not to mention a Junior World Champion). It is not as if Taylor was stuck by the #23 ranked guy in the country.

 

I know you'll disagree PA-FAN, but I'd take Bubba over Taylor as well if they met again. What do you mean by "he is not even David Taylor"?

[PA-Fan 0]

Rodneydeee,

 

True, turnarounds do happen all the time. I'm just saying I'd bet on a Dake pin before a Taylor win. By watching their matches with each other(including freestyle), and their matches with other opponents, I come to this conclusion.

 

The problem we are having is how can you watch 3 down to the wire matches in a row, one won in OT and one with a very late reversal, and come to that conclusion! Agree to disagree I suppose.

[PA-Fan 0]

What do you mean by "he is not even David Taylor"?

 

I mean that I certainly take an experienced David Taylor over an experienced Bubba Jenkins - and I don't think that would be all that close - regardless of their only meeting (Freshman Taylor vs. Senior Bubba). I'd even take Freshman Taylor in a rematch over Senior Bubba - but that is a much harder argument to make / win.

 

History will tell...I think that 99% of people will rate Taylor as a better NCAA wrestler when he is finished than Bubba - he certainly will have a better career.

[superold 34]

The problem we are having is how can you watch 3 down to the wire matches in a row, one won in OT and one with a very late reversal, and come to that conclusion! Agree to disagree I suppose.

 

I don't think the last match was "down to the wire". I don't believe the score indicates how close the match truly was, which was not that close imo. I also put far more weight on the freestyle match than the all-star bout. So really, the matches I put the most weight on in evaluating Dake/Taylor was the FS and the national final.

 

Edit: Also scuffle final!

[superold 34]

History will tell...I think that 99% of people will rate Taylor as a better NCAA wrestler when he is finished than Bubba - he certainly will have a better career.

 

I think they will too. No doubt about that. I'll be included if Taylor wins next year.

[PA-Fan 0]

I also put far more weight on the freestyle match than the all-star bout. So really, the matches I put the most weight on in evaluating Dake/Taylor was the FS and the national final.

 

So you are taking their 4 matches - throwing two of them out - weight the one that was under totally different rules most heavily - and subjectively calling the most recent one "not very close".

 

From that you form the opinion "Dake is more likely to get a pin than Taylor a win".

 

All I can say is that is not 100% honest/accurate evaluation of the evidence.

[superold 34]

So you are taking their 4 matches - throwing two of them out - weight the one that was under totally different rules most heavily - and subjectively calling the most recent one "not very close".

 

From that you form the opinion "Dake is more likely to get a pin than Taylor a win".

 

I just edited my post. I include the scuffle final, my mistake. Also, I weigh the ncaa final most heavily. When you call the match "down to the wire" isn't that also a subjective opinion? And, isn't failing to admit Dake is better than Taylor not following the evidence?

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Quote me, put it in your sig, do whatever... But Taylor will beat Dake. Not sure when, or where, but it'll happen within the next year or two. Taylor needs to wrestle better under pressure and he'll be fine. He's shown he can take him down which is what it'll take at the next level.

[PA-Fan 0]

Sure seems like you weigh the fall in freestyle most heavily...but I digress.

 

Saying a 5-4 match won on a RT point where each wrestler had 1 TD is down to the wire ... technically that may be subjective I suppose - but that is a semantic argument - it is much closer to following the evidence than saying "it wasn't all that close".

 

And I did not once fail to admit Dake is better. I think I actually said that in an earlier post. That isn't the argument we are having here.

[superold 34]

PA-Fan,

 

That depends on how you want to define "better" (because I think they have the same level of skill). But for simplicity sake Ill just say that Dake is "better" - as in he beat Taylor head to head, multiple times.

 

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by they have the same level of skill? Are you talking about "by the book" technical proficiency, or something more? And whatever your definition is, you believe they are on the exact same level?

 

And I do put most weight on the ncaa final.

[superold 34]

Saying a 5-4 match won on a RT point where each wrestler had 1 TD is down to the wire ... technically that may be subjective I suppose - but that is a semantic argument - it is much closer to following the evidence than saying "it wasn't all that close".

 

And I did not once fail to admit Dake is better. I think I actually said that in an earlier post. That isn't the argument we are having here.

 

Also, I agree with many (most?) that the stalling point was ridiculous. Do you believe the ref made the right call in that situation?

[BigRedMachine 210]

I'd even take Freshman Taylor in a rematch over Senior Bubba - but that is a much harder argument to make / win.

Agreed. While Bubba big brotherd Taylor in their title match, Freshman Taylor was a much better wrestler than Senior Jenkins. Jenkins had 4ish losses on the year, while Taylor was undefeated, unchallenged, and had just eviscerated an undefeated monster in Fittery.

 

Bubba's victory was a shock to almost everyone.

[VakAttack 3,973]

I don't see Taylor beating Dake in Freestyle, which will be the only style he will get a shot in from now on. Dake's skillset transfers much better to Free than Taylor's, IMO. Taylor could theoretically stall his way to 3 ball-draws and win 2 of them, but I don't see Taylor ever doing that kind of wrestling, and bravo to him for that. But Dake is more explosive and defensively sound, whereas Taylor is bit more scrambly. Things could change, but I don't know. If they kept wrestling in Folkstyle I think Taylor probably takes a couple out of 10, but Free is a much tougher style match up.

[PA-Fan 0]

I mean they have the same level of skill? I don't know how else to say that?

 

Do I believe they are on the exact same level? Skill wise? Yes. Accomplishment wise? No.

 

But we are getting down into some very semantic and much too unnecessarily specific argument levels here. So lets just cut it off and agree to disagree on all counts - obviously we evaluate the evidence differently - so we can not agree.

[superold 34]

VakAttack,

 

I think free would be a tougher match up for Taylor as well. You think Taylor gets 2 of 10 in folk? How many in freestyle?

[superold 34]

Do I believe they are on the exact same level? Skill wise? Yes. Accomplishment wise? No.

 

But we are getting down into some very semantic and much too unnecessarily specific argument levels here. So lets just cut it off and agree to disagree on all counts - obviously we evaluate the evidence differently - so we can not agree.

 

I don't mean to be picky, I'm just trying to understand what 'skill' means in your opinion. Surely, you have at least a working definition of the term "skill"? If you don't want to share it that's okay.

[PA-Fan 0]

I don't mean to be picky, I'm just trying to understand what 'skill' means in your opinion. Surely, you have at least a working definition of the term "skill"? If you don't want to share it that's okay.

 

What I mean when I say "skill" is this - the talent and ability to accomplish and achieve the same degree of success.

 

Do I think they are equal in that? yes.

 

Do I think head to head Dake has the edge? certainly (although it is very close IMO and can be turned)

[superold 34]

What I mean when I say "skill" is this - the talent and ability to accomplish and achieve the same degree of success. Do I think they are equal in that? yes. Do I think head to head Dake has the edge? certainly (although it is very close IMO and can be turned)

 

Then you believe they have the exact same chances of beating Jordan Burroughs? They have the same chances of being World and Olympic Champions? Why do you think Dake has the edge even though they share the exact same ability?

[PA-Fan 0]

Then you believe they have the exact same chances of...

 

Whether you mean to nit pick or not - you are.

No, having the same skill level (as I defined it) doesn't mean they have the exact same chance to do all those things you listed - it is just one variable. They still have to have a good training environment, match-up against opponents, be lucky, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

Dake has the edge head to head is what I said. Skill level can be equal and style match-ups can dictate who is better head to head...

 

Lets just let it rest it's getting exhausting now.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

I don't see Taylor beating Dake in Freestyle, which will be the only style he will get a shot in from now on. Dake's skillset transfers much better to Free than Taylor's, IMO. Taylor could theoretically stall his way to 3 ball-draws and win 2 of them, but I don't see Taylor ever doing that kind of wrestling, and bravo to him for that. But Dake is more explosive and defensively sound, whereas Taylor is bit more scrambly. Things could change, but I don't know. If they kept wrestling in Folkstyle I think Taylor probably takes a couple out of 10, but Free is a much tougher style match up.

 

I disagree here. I think someone has a better chance of cracking Dake neutral than I do riding or trying to get out with Dake.

[xander 346]

I still think the momentum on that escape / reversal had the signature of a big move (pin, 5 pointer, 4 pointer, etc) had the action occurred at the middle as opposed to the edge.

[superold 34]

Then you believe they have the exact same chances of...

 

Whether you mean to nit pick or not - you are.

No, having the same skill level (as I defined it) doesn't mean they have the exact same chance to do all those things you listed - it is just one variable. They still have to have a good training environment, match-up against opponents, be lucky, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

Dake has the edge head to head is what I said. Skill level can be equal and style match-ups can dictate who is better head to head...

 

Lets just let it rest it's getting exhausting now.

 

Okay. But why do you think that Dake has the edge if they are "exactly" the same in the skill department?