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Cael Valencia

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On 10/6/2020 at 2:25 PM, ShakaAloha said:

Sanderson is a better coach than Jones.  Sanderson has a better track record for developing blue chip recruits, especially guys around Cael Valencia's weight.  Also, Penn State is a superior academic institution to Arizona State.  There is no reason for Cael to pick ASU over PSU, aside from his older brothers being there.  

Very True.  I've spent a lot of time in Happy Valley. Wonderful place and strong academics.  PSU guy for life.  BUT, the first time I remember stepping on Arizona State's campus I almost passed out due to the amazing scenery (if you catch my drift.)  The type of scenery that could easily sway any 18 year old 

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4 hours ago, portajohn said:

Very True.  I've spent a lot of time in Happy Valley. Wonderful place and strong academics.  PSU guy for life.  BUT, the first time I remember stepping on Arizona State's campus I almost passed out due to the amazing scenery (if you catch my drift.)  The type of scenery that could easily sway any 18 year old 

The most shocking revelation of my professional career over the past 10 years is that Arizona State produces superior undergrad candidates over Penn State, which is a great school to provide multi-exam entry level graduates and start with the proverbial one step ahead, for the actuarial career path. If you know what that career is then you understand why "Arizona State" and "actuary" should not belong in the same sentence.

Edited by bnwtwg
grammar

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On 10/7/2020 at 8:06 PM, ShakaAloha said:

I should have prefaced my earlier comments by saying I am not a Penn State fan, but I think that Penn State is the best school for Cael Valencia because Coach Sanderson is the best wrestling coach in the country at any level, and has a proven track record for developing bluechip recruits.  I believe that if Zahid and Anthony had gone to Penn State, they would have had better careers than they did at ASU.  

I assume based on your screen name that you are connected to Bosco and the Valencias.  Are the parents honestly happy with the way their two older sons have been handled by the ASU program?  If that is how a program treated my kids, I would never allow another kid to go to that school.  

Zahid could not have had a better career than he did. Anthony has been in grad school for 2 years. Zahid stayed in Tempe to train with Sunkist. I would say they are happy with the way things turned out. 

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On 10/8/2020 at 5:53 AM, Housebuye said:

You think those are the only criteria recruits use? Who has a better track record training guys at their weight?

Plenty of guys would be better off not in Cael’s room. Cael is an amazing coach, but if you don’t fit in his mold, you are better off elsewhere. 

Show me one guy Cael coached up to all American. He has success will blue chip talent. Show me a Kordell Norfleet that he’s coached. 

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9 minutes ago, gobraves101905 said:

Solid

2015 jr world team member. Doubt that was Cael’s doing in 3 months. 

You may want to check your math. Cassar entered Penn State in the fall of 2014. He made the Jr World team in June 2015. Cassar was a one time state qualifier and one time state champ. Norfleet was a two time state champ for a high school wrestling powerhouse. Cassar came in with less pedigree than Norfleet and left with more achievements (so far). 

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11 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You may want to check your math. Cassar entered Penn State in the fall of 2014. He made the Jr World team in June 2015. Cassar was a one time state qualifier and one time state champ. Norfleet was a two time state champ for a high school wrestling powerhouse. Cassar came in with less pedigree than Norfleet and left with more achievements (so far). 

Cassar won 3 freestyle tournament starting in Dec 2014. It’s a good example. What does it say about his coaching of Nevills?  It’s nice you think 2 time IL champ is better than an undefeated NJ champ. Have to remember that when comparing PAC 12 titles to Big 10 titles. 

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You are underrating how Cael cashes his blue chips. A lot of guys come in with accolades but they leave Happy Valley with hardware. As a Cornell fan it gives me no pleasure to admit this.

In any event, a pretty decent anecdotal proof of his coaching ability is all of the blue chips that go to him to be coached up.

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3 hours ago, ugarte said:

You are underrating how Cael cashes his blue chips. A lot of guys come in with accolades but they leave Happy Valley with hardware. As a Cornell fan it gives me no pleasure to admit this.

In any event, a pretty decent anecdotal proof of his coaching ability is all of the blue chips that go to him to be coached up.

What he has done has been incredible. Let’s not take it the wrong way thinking he is a bad or subpar coach. 

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On 10/11/2020 at 8:57 AM, gobraves101905 said:

Cassar won 3 freestyle tournament starting in Dec 2014. It’s a good example. What does it say about his coaching of Nevills?  It’s nice you think 2 time IL champ is better than an undefeated NJ champ. Have to remember that when comparing PAC 12 titles to Big 10 titles. 

Yes. 2x Illinois champ, with both being undefeated seasons, is better than undefeated 1x New Jersey champ.

You seem to be under the misperception that NJ high school wrestling is better than Illinois. By objective measures, like nationally ranked wrestlers, that is not true. The two states are comparable.

Furthermore, Cassar was ranked 20 by Intermat coming out of high school (and unranked by Flo) while Norfleet was ranked 7.

So back to your original claim that Sanderson hasn't produced a Kordell Norfleet type wrestler, it is inaccurate.

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On 10/10/2020 at 2:12 PM, gobraves101905 said:

Zahid could not have had a better career than he did. 

Sure, he could have.  He could have taken 1st in NCAA's during his redshirt freshman year.  He also could have either (1) not been suspended during his senior year, or (2) taken an Olympic redshirt, which he was eligible for, and have one last year of eligibility to win a last NCAA championship.  While I agree that he surpassed the expectations he had as a HS recruit by becoming 2x NCAA champ/3x AA, he could have been a 4x NCAA champ with better coaching and career/life management, which I believe he would have gotten at a different university such as PSU, tOSU, Oklahoma St., Iowa, Cornell, Mizzou, etc.

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On 10/10/2020 at 2:29 PM, gobraves101905 said:

Show me one guy Cael coached up to all American. He has success will blue chip talent. Show me a Kordell Norfleet that he’s coached. 

Cael has been a college head coach for 14 years.  Zeke has been a college head coach for 8 years.  

Cael has coached 66 total All Americans and 22 NCAA Individual Champions. Eight of his teams have won NCAA Team Championships.  Penn State is where you go if you are a blue chip recruit.

Zeke is no where near these numbers. 

Also, Kordell Norfleet was a top-10 recruit coming out of HS, and has yet to make the podium at the NCAA Tournament.  He is a stud wrestler, but the jury is still out on his collegiate career.

On 10/10/2020 at 3:39 PM, gobraves101905 said:

ASU has put 2 guys in the Greco finals, both #1 seeds. Went 1-1. Have two guys in the freestyle finals, seeded 3 and 5. So both outperformed their seeds already. So why don’t you come to ASU? 

That is a good day in a watered down Senior Nationals, but the problem is that Zeke's guys underachieve at the NCAA Tournament.  

Judging by your responses to me, Cael Valencia is following his brothers to ASU.  I respect every young man or woman's right to make their own decisions with respect to where they are going to attend college.  However, I think Cael Valencia would have a better college and international career if he went to Penn State.  I wish him the best and hope he has a college career closer to Zahid rather than Anthony.

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42 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Sure, he could have.  He could have taken 1st in NCAA's during his redshirt freshman year.  He also could have either (1) not been suspended during his senior year, or (2) taken an Olympic redshirt, which he was eligible for, and have one last year of eligibility to win a last NCAA championship.  While I agree that he surpassed the expectations he had as a HS recruit by becoming 2x NCAA champ/3x AA, he could have been a 4x NCAA champ with better coaching and career/life management, which I believe he would have gotten at a different university such as PSU, tOSU, Oklahoma St., Iowa, Cornell, Mizzou, etc.

Has Sanderson coached a 4 time champ yet?  To say Valencia would have done better than 3,1,1 and almost assuredly another 1 is laughable. Life choices?  You realize that Ed Ruth got a DUI with a blood alcohol level about 3x's the legal limit, right?  

Zeke is a high end coach without remotely the name recognition Cael has, nor the resources.  Cael is unquestionably the best DI Head Coach.  That isn't debatable.  But, to say every top guy that went somewhere else would have done better at PSU is PURE POPPYCOCK!!!   A perfect example IS THE GUY that Valencia beat for 2 of his 3 titles.  Hall was at PSU and was an even HIGHER sought recruit.  Why was Valencia beating him more and developing more than Hall?????

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58 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Hall was at PSU and was an even HIGHER sought recruit.  Why was Valencia beating him more and developing more than Hall?????

Because Hall was giving up a significant weight advantage to Zahid (if you subtract the weight of Hall's head he's only 132 pounds). 

Edited by TobusRex

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On 10/10/2020 at 7:29 PM, gobraves101905 said:

Show me one guy Cael coached up to all American. He has success will blue chip talent. Show me a Kordell Norfleet that he’s coached. 

Rasheed Shakur

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29 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

but the problem is that Zeke's guys underachieve at the NCAA Tournament

Can you actually back that up with facts?

2020:  This was their best seeded year across the board under Zeke. 6 top 9 seeds and it would have been 7 if not for Zahid.  This team actually beat PSU in a dual. Sadly, they were not able to even try to match or exceed their seeds due to Covid.

Courtney and Teemer were 9 seeds.  Shields was 6.  A. Valencia was 8.  Z. Valencia played with some powder.  Norfleet was also a 9 seed and Hall was a 4 seed.

2019:  Millhoff got hurt after Pac 12's and withdrew from NCAA's early enough to allow for an Alternate.  Did Cael do that with Suriano?  After that, Maruca was a 23 seed and won a match covering his seed.  Pagdiliao was a 9 seed and won his 1st 2 matches making the quarterfinals, beating the 8th seed. He would go on to take 7th, EASILY outperforming his seed.  Shields was the 3 seed in a MEATGRINDER weight.  He actually made the semis before losing 3-2 to Joseph.  He would then lose close matches to Marsteller and White to take 6th.  Under seed, but still a very strong performance, considering Marinelli took 7th in that same bracket.  Zahid won it as the 3 seed.  So who exactly underperformed?  Shields?  NOt exactly proof all of Zeke's guys underperform.

2018:  Millhoff battled injuries this year as well.  Was the 15 seed and went 2-2 to match his seed.  Naser was the 15 seed at 21-13.  Over seeded and went 0-2.  Tsirtsis was the 10 seed and took 7th.  Shields was the 4 seed and took 7th, losing to Kemerer and beating Zilverberg for 7th after losing to him on the top side.  A. Valencia was the 15 seed and went 2-2, matching his seed.  Zahid won it as the 1 seed.  Norfleet qualified as an un-seeded true freshman and went 0-2.  Hall went 2-2 as an 8 seed.  Pretty solid performance overall, with Hall being the only real underperformance of any substance.

2017:  Maruca went 2-2, unseeded at 149 with a win over Collica.  Shields went 1-2 as a 9 seed freshman.  A. Valencia made the quarterfinals as a 7 seed before losing to Massa and then in the R12 on a last second move 8-7.  Zahid took 3rd as the 1 seed, losing 4-3 to Hall in the semis.  He won his other matches 19-5, 12-3, 14-8, Fall 1:36 and 15-5.  Hall took 3rd as the 7 seed.  Again, pretty solid performance overall.  

2016:  Brady went 1-2 unseeded.  Mathers went 0-2 unseeded.  Krauss went 1-2 as a 13 seed.  Stauffer lost in the R12 to Boyd 6-4 as the 6 seed.  Boyd took 4th. DaSilviera was a surprise qualifier and went 1-2 unseeded.  Hall lost in the R12 3-2 to Dhesi as an unseeded freshman.  Only his 2nd season and they Qualified 6 guys with Hall being his only recruit.

2015:  He started in April of 2014, so no real recruits of his this season.   Krauss went 0-2 unseeded.  Pagdilao went 0-2 as the 10 seed.  Pierce qualified as a freshman but got injured and defaulted out his 2nd match to go 0-2 unseeded.  Waters went 0-2 unseeded.  Stauffer took 4th as the 3 seed.  Not bad for the 1st season, with none of his recruits.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Has Sanderson coached a 4 time champ yet?  To say Valencia would have done better than 3,1,1 and almost assuredly another 1 is laughable. Life choices?  You realize that Ed Ruth got a DUI with a blood alcohol level about 3x's the legal limit, right?  

Zeke is a high end coach without remotely the name recognition Cael has, nor the resources.  Cael is unquestionably the best DI Head Coach.  That isn't debatable.  But, to say every top guy that went somewhere else would have done better at PSU is PURE POPPYCOCK!!!   A perfect example IS THE GUY that Valencia beat for 2 of his 3 titles.  Hall was at PSU and was an even HIGHER sought recruit.  Why was Valencia beating him more and developing more than Hall?????

1. Yet, Ed Ruth was able to wrestle at the NCAA Tournament all four seasons he was eligible, and Zahid was not.

2. The reason Zahid beat Hall in the finals twice was because Hall was clearly wrestling up a weight for the good of the team.  Cenzo at 165 and Hall at 174 is better for PSU than Hall at 165 and Cenzo at 174.

3. I didn't say that every top guy could do better at PSU, or should go to PSU.  Clearly, Yianni and Spencer are doing just fine where they are.  What I was saying is that Zeke failed to develop Cael Valencia's own brother Anthony, who has yet to place at the NCAA tournament.

If I were a top HS recruit, I would not go to ASU.  It is a party school with a poor academic reputation.  There are many other great choices for both high-level Div.1 wrestling and academics like Iowa, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Missouri, Princeton, Michigan, Northwestern, Nebraska, etc.  I think that Cael Valencia might be best off taking his own path, but that is clearly not going to happen.  I guess we can revisit this thread in 4 to 5 years and see who ends up being correct.

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3 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

1. Yet, Ed Ruth was able to wrestle at the NCAA Tournament all four seasons he was eligible, and Zahid was not.

2. The reason Zahid beat Hall in the finals twice was because Hall was clearly wrestling up a weight for the good of the team.  Cenzo at 165 and Hall at 174 is better for PSU than Hall at 165 and Cenzo at 174.

3. I didn't say that every top guy could do better at PSU, or should go to PSU.  Clearly, Yianni and Spencer are doing just fine where they are.  What I was saying is that Zeke failed to develop Cael Valencia's own brother Anthony, who has yet to place at the NCAA tournament.

If I were a top HS recruit, I would not go to ASU.  It is a party school with a poor academic reputation.  There are many other great choices for both high-level Div.1 wrestling and academics like Iowa, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Missouri, Princeton, Michigan, Northwestern, Nebraska, etc.  I think that Cael Valencia might be best off taking his own path, but that is clearly not going to happen.  I guess we can revisit this thread in 4 to 5 years and see who ends up being correct.

1.  You were the 1 stating that life choices would OBVIOUSLY be handled better at PSU under Sanderson.  Which is more dangerous, a guy driving his car around 2:00 am with a .2+ blood alcohol level or a kid that did some blow out of the country(supposedly)?  Yes, Ruth was able to wrestle, but life management was sanctimonious poppycock(my word of the day).

2.  Everything I read kept saying 165 was too tough of a cut for Hall and  most of that was directly from Hall's mouth.  As a wrestling lifer traveling to Kentucky and then Minnesota to find the best competition, if 165 was his best weight he would have been at 165, unless of course he couldn't beat Joseph and that was why he went 174.........

3.  Anthony was VERY OVERRATED for Folkstyle wrestling.  He was rated so high due to some serious credentials at a young age in FREESTYLE.  However, it was apparent that is his mat wrestling would be suspect, and it was.  Also, his endurance for a 7 minute match proved suspect and he tended to break in very physical matches.  Now, that isn't to say he hasn't been a very solid wrestler at ASU. He has been a top 15 guy from the beginning and was 1 very bad brainfart away from AAing freshman.  Finally, I think he would have AA'd last season if given the chance.  35-7, 27-10 and 22-6 is still pretty solid.

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