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GABE DEAN v. DAVID TAYLOR

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Taylor almost always demolishes second tier guys, and unless Dean can get to a TD with multiple gut wrenches BEFORE Taylor starts a scoring spree on him, I don't see any way Dean has a chance.  

Since the event is including a Cornell guy, maybe they should also pit Dake against Nolf.   That would actually be a more interesting match.   

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Taylor almost always demolishes second tier guys, and unless Dean can get to a TD with multiple gut wrenches BEFORE Taylor starts a scoring spree on him, I don't see any way Dean has a chance.  
Since the event is including a Cornell guy, maybe they should also pit Dake against Nolf.   That would actually be a more interesting match.   

That would be interesting. Nolf has looked a bit rusty the last two matches. Not very offensive.


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11 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

On paper Dake/Nolf would be intriguing, but when you remember that Imar has Nolf’s number and then you go back and watch how Dake ragdolled Imar then you start to paint a picture that isn’t very rosy

You think?  I don't believe Nolf is anywhere near being competitive with Dake?  Even on paper...

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On 11/6/2020 at 9:19 PM, dmm53 said:

Taylor almost always demolishes second tier guys, and unless Dean can get to a TD with multiple gut wrenches BEFORE Taylor starts a scoring spree on him, I don't see any way Dean has a chance.  

Since the event is including a Cornell guy, maybe they should also pit Dake against Nolf.   That would actually be a more interesting match.   

And let's get Diakomihalis on the mat with Lee while we are at it.

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19 hours ago, Mphillips said:

You think?  I don't believe Nolf is anywhere near being competitive with Dake?  Even on paper...

I think people would see it with rose-tinted folk style glasses. Dake by tech 2-0 as it stands today. Nolf is the biggest boom/bust senior prospect the US has had in a long time. But now that I’m thinking of it, I may start a new thread of some other current front-runners and see if that conversation takes off

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Some relevant points:

Nolf has pinned IMar in folkstyle and lost two very. very close matches to him there as a younger wrestler in his freshman season.

Nolf has also beaten IMar once in freestyle.   He was injured as well during that period and not in top form as he was getting his freestyle chops.

Dake often doesn't not dominate second tier guys (either in freestyle or folkstyle) and certainly not in the way Taylor does.  

Nolf is still on a learning curve in freestyle and his weight and strength are now coming into more competitive form.

Nolf has won his last three freestyle matches over two time NCAA champion Jordan Oliver; one time champ (admittedly not in top form) Bubba Jenkins, and David McFadden.

He is also the Pan Am champion at 79 KG. 

Meanwhile, Dake has barely squeaked by Chamizo and did not score a takedown in the match.

Dake, of course, would be favored vs. Nolf, but I think Nolf would (or will) give him a run for his money.   On paper it would be high level defense vs. high level offense. 

Edited by dmm53

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1 hour ago, dmm53 said:

Some relevant points:

Nolf has pinned IMar in folkstyle and lost two very. very close matches to him there as a younger wrestler in his freshman season.

Nolf has also beaten IMar once in freestyle.   He was injured as well during that period and not in top form as he was getting his freestyle chops.

Dake often doesn't not dominate second tier guys (either in freestyle or folkstyle) and certainly not in the way Taylor does.  

Nolf is still on a learning curve in freestyle and his weight and strength are now coming into more competitive form.

Nolf has won his last three freestyle matches over two time NCAA champion Jordan Oliver; one time champ (admittedly not in top form) Bubba Jenkins, and David McFadden.

He is also the Pan Am champion at 79 KG. 

Meanwhile, Dake has barely squeaked by Chamizo and did not score a takedown in the match.

Dake, of course, would be favored vs. Nolf, but I think Nolf would (or will) give him a run for his money.   On paper it would be high level defense vs. high level offense. 

Three more relevant points:

Dake is a 2x world champion.

Dake has beaten DT Every. Single. Time.  Except in fantasy matches, of course.

It doesn't really matter how dominant are your wins:  what matters is that you win.  All Dake does is win.

(What's the difference between a very close match and a very, very close match?)

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14 minutes ago, klehner said:

Three more relevant points:

Dake is a 2x world champion.

Dake has beaten DT Every. Single. Time.  Except in fantasy matches, of course.

It doesn't really matter how dominant are your wins:  what matters is that you win.  All Dake does is win.

(What's the difference between a very close match and a very, very close match?)

My points have to do with some of the discussion above as to whether Nolf can reasonably compete with Dake or Dean can compete with DT.   It is not really about DT vs. Dake.  

"All Dake does is win".  Well, not against Borroughs; he tied him once in something like 8 matches and won on criteria.  And, moreover, Dake has not won a championship at an Olympic weight (where DT and Borroughs both have championships and neither Dake nor Cox have them).  In fact, he hasn't made the team in his tries at either 74 KG or 86 KG.

Dominance does often (or can) matter if you are trying to make transitive arguments from one wrestler to another or to a third wrestler.  

Dake is 29 and going on 30 soon (even if he claims he is Benjamin Button) and getting younger.  Nolf is only 24.  Dake won his two championships in his late 20's.   Nolf has time to develop, and everyone should know the guy is very innovative; more so than Dake.  I'm not saying Nolf can beat Dake now; just saying he can possibly give him a good match, and that I (for one among others) would love to see it happen sometime soon.  That's all.

Edited by dmm53

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2 hours ago, dmm53 said:

Some relevant points:

Nolf has pinned IMar in folkstyle and lost two very. very close matches to him there as a younger wrestler in his freshman season.

Won once, lost twice

Nolf has also beaten IMar once in freestyle.   He was injured as well during that period and not in top form as he was getting his freestyle chops.

On a hail mary, and then was teched the next match. Imar ruined his shoulder in the same tourney so injuries are off-setting at best.

Dake often doesn't not dominate second tier guys (either in freestyle or folkstyle) and certainly not in the way Taylor does.  

Dake smashed everyone until he blew out his knee, and then still won a WORLD TITLE during recovery

Nolf is still on a learning curve in freestyle and his weight and strength are now coming into more competitive form.

Hopefully he wins a world title. If you follow my history you will see that I'm a huge proponent of Nolf when most aren't, but he has a very, very, very long way to go

Nolf has won his last three freestyle matches over two time NCAA champion Jordan Oliver; one time champ (admittedly not in top form) Bubba Jenkins, and David McFadden.

Oliver is a 65, Nolf is a 74. That's 20 pounds in an exhibition match.

He is also the Pan Am champion at 79 KG. 

I mean, soo is Ashnault... Pan Ams meant nothing this year but I am absolutely ecstatic that Nolf is qualified to make the OTT that much better and prove he belongs

Meanwhile, Dake has barely squeaked by Chamizo and did not score a takedown in the match.

Dake barely beat a world champion and returning world silver medalist. What a bum.

Dake, of course, would be favored vs. Nolf, but I think Nolf would (or will) give him a run for his money.   On paper it would be high level defense vs. high level offense. 

On paper. The real match will end with Dake bombs on Dake bombs. He's cocky as $hit but the dude knows how to win trophies.

 

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5 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

I think people would see it with rose-tinted folk style glasses. Dake by tech 2-0 as it stands today. Nolf is the biggest boom/bust senior prospect the US has had in a long time. But now that I’m thinking of it, I may start a new thread of some other current front-runners and see if that conversation takes off

I don't think I would and I certainly wouldn't use the terms, "boom or bust."

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3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

 

Some relevant points:

Nolf has pinned IMar in folkstyle and lost two very. very close matches to him there as a younger wrestler in his freshman season.

Won once, lost twice.  

Your statement adds nothing (Zero) to what I already acknowledged. 

Nolf has also beaten IMar once in freestyle.   He was injured as well during that period and not in top form as he was getting his freestyle chops.

On a hail mary, and then was teched the next match. Imar ruined his shoulder in the same tourney so injuries are off-setting at best.

Oh, so you are making a distinction between wins and dominant wins, huh?  See above.

Dake often doesn't not dominate second tier guys (either in freestyle or folkstyle) and certainly not in the way Taylor does.  

Dake smashed everyone until he blew out his knee, and then still won a WORLD TITLE during recovery

Dake absolutely does not dominate everyone.   He often barely squeaks by even if he is often in control of the matches.  Look at his college matches in particular.  Look at his wins over Dieringer, Zahid, and so many other matches.

Nolf is still on a learning curve in freestyle and his weight and strength are now coming into more competitive form.

Hopefully he wins a world title. If you follow my history you will see that I'm a huge proponent of Nolf when most aren't, but he has a very, very, very long way to go

Way too many "very's" in that sentence.  You underestimate him.   He's beaten Massa, Joseph, Valencia, Gantt, and lots of others. 

Nolf has won his last three freestyle matches over two time NCAA champion Jordan Oliver; one time champ (admittedly not in top form) Bubba Jenkins, and David McFadden.

Oliver is a 65, Nolf is a 74. That's 20 pounds in an exhibition match.

Oliver weighed in at a similar weight.   Oliver balloons in the off-season.  There was NOT a weight advantage. Oliver avoided wrestling in that match.  He didn't want to engage.  He practically avoids wrestling in all the big matches (against better guys).

He is also the Pan Am champion at 79 KG. 

I mean, soo is Ashnault... Pan Ams meant nothing this year but I am absolutely ecstatic that Nolf is qualified to make the OTT that much better and prove he belongs

Meanwhile, Dake has barely squeaked by Chamizo and did not score a takedown in the match.

Dake barely beat a world champion and returning world silver medalist. What a bum.

Dake barely, barely, barely won; he could have easily lost.  And Dake had the size (weight) advantage if we follow your reasoning above

Dake, of course, would be favored vs. Nolf, but I think Nolf would (or will) give him a run for his money.   On paper it would be high level defense vs. high level offense. 

On paper. The real match will end with Dake bombs on Dake bombs. He's cocky as $hit but the dude knows how to win trophies.

Wishful thinking.  But, yes, Dake is a narcissist and self-promoter.   

PS: Nolf has fewer losses and fewer bad losses in his NCAA career than Dake.  Give Nolf some time; Dake took damn long enough to get his two freestyle titles. 

Edited by dmm53

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