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No worlds...

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

That is not the point...

the boogie bug is just that...

if the health and safety of athletes was the real concern USAW would not have had nationals... or their National duals last week... or pre- season nationals next week... or any of the other tournaments they have hosted or sanctioned in the last couple of months or in the upcoming months...
 

Thank you.  You get it.  And allow me to clarify--"potential" super-spreader.  Look in my above post; I asked if there had been some outbreak of cases to justify the sudden announcement to abandon worlds. They knew they weren't going to send a team but held nationals (and other events) anyways.

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Welcome to a world of insanity and no logic...get use to it...or get out there and vote.

By the way...how are cases surging when it is pretty much required to wear masks everywhere??  I thought they were supposed to reduce the spread...hmmmm???  I'll save people from making the comment..."But...but...not everyone is wearing them!!"...BS!!!

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I’m surprised people are trying to act like USAW hosting a domestic event with complete control of policies and protocols is the same as USAW sending a delegation to combine with 70 other nations where you have absolutely nothing to do with the policies and protocols. Trying to act like they are one in the same and having different decisions on each is some sort of hypocrisy, while refusing to look at the process taken to come to this decision is unintelligent and short sighted. But then again it is America in the 2000’s and we just have to have something to bitch about. 

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3 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Cases are going to continue surging around the world. Worlds isn’t going to happen, no matter what USA wrestling decided. 
  
I get that fans are mad, but we are in a pandemic and this was the only outcome possible. 
  
It sucks, but I’ve been saying since March this was the only possible outcome. 

They cancelled the Olympics, with billions of dollars in the line, and case counts will be far higher in December than over the summer. Flying in athletes and coaches from dozens of countries was never going to be allowed, especially for a financially inconsequential sport. 
  
I bet if UWW doesn’t cancel it, Serbia will. 

You're right. I expect this to happen with the Olympics in 2021 too. We will start seeing nations pull out and eventually the Olympics will likely be canceled. It's really unfortunate, but we are in a pandemic.

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I look forward to us never being able to do anything ever again.  Better safe than sorry, right?!?!  Doesn't matter that there is no end game for this particular virus except some magic vaccine that may or may not work, on some but not all, and at a low efficacy percentage.  The virus has taken over the world.  And if it isn't this virus it will be another one so let's all just stay inside wearing "masks".  No sports, no school, no jobs, no economy, no freedoms, no friends, no family, but hey, let's keep Walmart and Home Depot open because we will need to buy stuff for a home we will not longer be able to afford...man sure seems worth it because how can you not care about your fellow human being...people are dying!!!

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

Welcome to a world of insanity and no logic...get use to it...or get out there and vote.

By the way...how are cases surging when it is pretty much required to wear masks everywhere??  I thought they were supposed to reduce the spread...hmmmm???  I'll save people from making the comment..."But...but...not everyone is wearing them!!"...BS!!!

 

30 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I’m surprised people are trying to act like USAW hosting a domestic event with complete control of policies and protocols is the same as USAW sending a delegation to combine with 70 other nations where you have absolutely nothing to do with the policies and protocols. Trying to act like they are one in the same and having different decisions on each is some sort of hypocrisy, while refusing to look at the process taken to come to this decision is unintelligent and short sighted. But then again it is America in the 2000’s and we just have to have something to bitch about. 

But masks!

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So while the declaration may have been more aptly named, maybe it’s time for all of us to let go of our outrage at people with different points of view (anyone familiar with the scientific method and medical research knows that there is no one single correct viewpoint on such amorphous phenomena as epidemics—despite the phrase I’m hearing often these days that “the Science says…” as if there’s one Science that definitively knows all). Perhaps it’s time as ordinary citizens to ask ourselves: If we let go of the fear and politicizing and demonizing associated with this current situation—which has so tragically divided us and diminished open-minded conversation—what course of action will support the greatest well-being for the greatest number? Could it be possible that a continued lockdown may not be the more humane and caring choice?

https://theberkshireedge.com/the-great-barrington-declaration-another-viewpoint/

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

Welcome to a world of insanity and no logic...get use to it...or get out there and vote.

By the way...how are cases surging when it is pretty much required to wear masks everywhere??  I thought they were supposed to reduce the spread...hmmmm???  I'll save people from making the comment..."But...but...not everyone is wearing them!!"...BS!!!

Dude. I don’t care if you don’t like inconvenient numbers and/or “the science”. 
 

Saying big chunks of people aren’t wearing masks with a straight face is.... foolish.

for some odd reason. If I recall correctly. After the first lockdown. Cases did go down.. sooo restrictions started lifting.. then magically, or well.. predictably. Cases are going back up. It’s also a season called “fall” now. So more people are inside. I could go on but I’m aware logic is evil incarnate to some.

Again, you can blah blah whatever about whether or not the virus is a big deal. I know plenty that thinks it’s some sort of conspiracy or other voodoo type nonsense. That’s okay. You do you away from me I guess ..

But saying there’s not lots of people not wearing masks either makes you looks ignorant, dumb, or disingenuous. 

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14 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Dude. I don’t care if you don’t like inconvenient numbers and/or “the science”. 
 

Saying big chunks of people aren’t wearing masks with a straight face is.... foolish.

for some odd reason. If I recall correctly. After the first lockdown. Cases did go down.. sooo restrictions started lifting.. then magically, or well.. predictably. Cases are going back up. It’s also a season called “fall” now. So more people are inside. I could go on but I’m aware logic is evil incarnate to some.

Again, you can blah blah whatever about whether or not the virus is a big deal. I know plenty that thinks it’s some sort of conspiracy or other voodoo type nonsense. That’s okay. You do you away from me I guess ..

But saying there’s not lots of people not wearing masks either makes you looks ignorant, dumb, or disingenuous. 

I didn't think that was what he was saying.  I thought he was talking about the effectiveness of the masks since it appears most people are wearing it.  I read it that he was perhaps telling mask advocates to not argue the spikes are due to large swaths of people not wearing them.

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18 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Dude. I don’t care if you don’t like inconvenient numbers and/or “the science”. 
 

Saying big chunks of people aren’t wearing masks with a straight face is.... foolish.

for some odd reason. If I recall correctly. After the first lockdown. Cases did go down.. sooo restrictions started lifting.. then magically, or well.. predictably. Cases are going back up. It’s also a season called “fall” now. So more people are inside. I could go on but I’m aware logic is evil incarnate to some.

Again, you can blah blah whatever about whether or not the virus is a big deal. I know plenty that thinks it’s some sort of conspiracy or other voodoo type nonsense. That’s okay. You do you away from me I guess ..

But saying there’s not lots of people not wearing masks either makes you looks ignorant, dumb, or disingenuous. 

Dude...show me the inconvenient numbers and "science" please.  And funny that I have a degree in biology and worked in drug development for 11 years so pretty sure I understand data and science.  Anyway, other than because you say so and call people ignorant who hasn't seen it, I'll continue to wait for the "inconvenient numbers" that show people aren't wearing masks...and wait....and wait...and wait for the data that shows cases went down at the time the mandates went into effect...again I'll wait...and wait...and wait.  By the way...what is the end game of this?  That cases go down?  Or do you chose to forget the "inconvenient" words from the very Scientists who you claim people don't listen to say that this isn't about people not getting it and that most people will get it??  Oops....

And Dude...please show me where I said this virus isn't serious, or is a conspiracy, or is some other voodoo type nonsense???  Again, I'll wait....and wait...and wait...because I have said it IS serious.  But not serious enough to shut the whole freaking world and economy down.  Do you ever once think that people who feel that that is necessary are the ones, as you put it...that are "foolish"??

So instead of going around calling people "ignorant, dumb, or disingenuous" (ironic coming from a guy who uses the word "Dude"), debate with less personal attacks and more with logic, facts and truths...again, I'll wait...and wait...and wait...

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12 minutes ago, MonagFam said:

I didn't think that was what he was saying.  I thought he was talking about the effectiveness of the masks since it appears most people are wearing it.  I read it that he was perhaps telling mask advocates to not argue the spikes are due to large swaths of people not wearing them.

This!  Thanks for being way more succinct and clear than my gibberish post!

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42 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

So while the declaration may have been more aptly named, maybe it’s time for all of us to let go of our outrage at people with different points of view (anyone familiar with the scientific method and medical research knows that there is no one single correct viewpoint on such amorphous phenomena as epidemics—despite the phrase I’m hearing often these days that “the Science says…” as if there’s one Science that definitively knows all). Perhaps it’s time as ordinary citizens to ask ourselves: If we let go of the fear and politicizing and demonizing associated with this current situation—which has so tragically divided us and diminished open-minded conversation—what course of action will support the greatest well-being for the greatest number? Could it be possible that a continued lockdown may not be the more humane and caring choice?

https://theberkshireedge.com/the-great-barrington-declaration-another-viewpoint/

You are right TBar!  I couldn't agree more with your post!  I need to work on this and try to not continue the divide, and push for more open minded conversations.  I feel very strongly that somewhere along the way we did stop supporting the greatest well-being for the greatest number for a lot of things in our society.

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2 minutes ago, dman115 said:

You are right TBar!  I couldn't agree more with your post!  I need to work on this and try to not continue the divide, and push for more open minded conversations.  I feel very strongly that somewhere along the way we did stop supporting the greatest well-being for the greatest number for a lot of things in our society.

I try to stay out of these discussions.  I have my opinions, but it seems like it ends up becoming something where I am seemingly accused of advocating for the death of older people with preexisting conditions.  I will generally do what the government asks; I will wear a mask if they tell me to; I can get if people are worried and respect that, etc.

That said, I swear I have never seen a positive news day since March.  It feels it somehow shifted from slow the spread/flatten the curve to there should be no new cases ever.  

My wife and I have six kids that all live at home.  My oldest tested positive for COVID19 in June (sick a day or two), yet nobody else tested positive or exhibited any symptoms.  

My kids are largely back in the school building.  All have been able to compete in sports so far.

Sorry...rambling...as I said, I generally steer clear.

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19 minutes ago, MonagFam said:

I try to stay out of these discussions.  I have my opinions, but it seems like it ends up becoming something where I am seemingly accused of advocating for the death of older people with preexisting conditions.  I will generally do what the government asks; I will wear a mask if they tell me to; I can get if people are worried and respect that, etc.

That said, I swear I have never seen a positive news day since March.  It feels it somehow shifted from slow the spread/flatten the curve to there should be no new cases ever.  

My wife and I have six kids that all live at home.  My oldest tested positive for COVID19 in June (sick a day or two), yet nobody else tested positive or exhibited any symptoms.  

My kids are largely back in the school building.  All have been able to compete in sports so far.

Sorry...rambling...as I said, I generally steer clear.

I know two different 70 year olds who spent close to a lifetime smoking. One smoked for 40 years, the other 35. Both had quit about at age 60, but still they are both older and both had somewhat compromised lungs. Both tested positive recently but neither was sick more than a few days.

A friend told me yesterday that he had caught Covid. He was sick a few days and got tested and sure enough he had it. He lives with his wife and 3 teen age daughters. None of them caught it from him.  

I could rattle off a litany of articles suggesting that many people have been listed as death from Covid where they had so many other contributing factors it isn't funny, but the one that really caught my eye was that of the "healthy 29 year old" in TX. Further examination showed he had multiples of the level considered deadly for ........... not Covid, but rather Oxycodone. So what killed him? The asymptomatic Covid he had OR the truck load of Oxy in his system? 

Anyone who thinks a government and compliant media can't manipulate information and thinking is naive. It has been going on since the beginning of time. Now, to use a phrase made popular by the left - question authority!

Edited by TBar1977

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3 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Dude...show me the inconvenient numbers and "science" please.  And funny that I have a degree in biology and worked in drug development for 11 years so pretty sure I understand data and science.  Anyway, other than because you say so and call people ignorant who hasn't seen it, I'll continue to wait for the "inconvenient numbers" that show people aren't wearing masks...and wait....and wait...and wait for the data that shows cases went down at the time the mandates went into effect...again I'll wait...and wait...and wait.  By the way...what is the end game of this?  That cases go down?  Or do you chose to forget the "inconvenient" words from the very Scientists who you claim people don't listen to say that this isn't about people not getting it and that most people will get it??  Oops....

And Dude...please show me where I said this virus isn't serious, or is a conspiracy, or is some other voodoo type nonsense???  Again, I'll wait....and wait...and wait...because I have said it IS serious.  But not serious enough to shut the whole freaking world and economy down.  Do you ever once think that people who feel that that is necessary are the ones, as you put it...that are "foolish"??

So instead of going around calling people "ignorant, dumb, or disingenuous" (ironic coming from a guy who uses the word "Dude"), debate with less personal attacks and more with logic, facts and truths...again, I'll wait...and wait...and wait...

That’s how your statement about the masks came across.. 

As far as the data. I’ve seen multiple charts showing the ups and downs of the virus rates that match the restrictions and let ups then fall pretty much on point. (From multiple sources because I’m well aware of the issues there.) If you want to quibble on the trustworthiness of the data. We both know we’ll go in circles.

And is there data showing that everyone is using masks? I would love to know. Because I have heard, seen, and read about how many people aren’t wearing masks the Especially in the Midwest where I am that directly correlates to the recent spikes in cases. 

And lol at the comment about the word dude.

My attitude about the whole thing can be summed as.. anyone whining about wearing a piece of cloth over their face for a few hours is soft. 

I also generally think anyone who is scared of the “Antifa” is dumb because anyone who’s actually met those “Antifa” types knows at worst they’ll egg your house and at best just keep virtue signaling for their Facebook likes.  

The one thing this pandemic has revealed is how spoiled and soft many actually are. The funny thing is that I definitely don’t fall into the TR Foley category or one end and I roll my eyes at hard core conservatives. I consider libertarianism just as naive as communism 
 

And yes. The way you wrote that original post came across the way it did. 

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You sure are confused easily...the argument isn't about the mask wearing in and of itself...the argument is around the government mandating it (so you understand...some people don't like that the government puts controls on ones life, even if you do like that they do that) and the argument is about the overall effectiveness of masks on the spread (if you truly are open minded you will find just as much commentary on the ineffectiveness as the effectiveness of cloth masks).  In regards to that...it is funny how people can sit and make statements about "you don't believe the science?"...yet turn around and use completely unscientific "studies" (in actuality are just opinion pieces) that use assumptions, empirical observations, and vague data correlations to support the narrative that wearing a cloth face covering/mask some how is the end all be all for stopping the spread.

All I have to say about your Antifa comment is WOW.....

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I keep track of the data in Illinois only. The Illinois Department of Health provides nice data, but little analysis. So hear goes.

This is what the situation looked like on July 16 when I first began using their data:

updated 7/16/20                
Age Group Confirmed Cases Confirmed in Last 7 Days Tested Tested in Last 7 Days Deaths Deaths in Last 7 Days Positive Rate Positivity Rate in Last 7 Days Death Rate
Unkown                           57                        (2)        78,362             4,388                 -                -   0.07% -0.05% 0.00%
<20                   12,724                  1,006      145,523           17,976                  4              -   8.74% 5.60% 0.03%
20 - 29                   26,945                  1,535      293,769           32,997                27               2 9.17% 4.65% 0.10%
30 - 39                   25,562                      964      297,859           29,602              111              -   8.58% 3.26% 0.43%
40 - 49                   26,581                      624      280,761           25,988              252               3 9.47% 2.40% 0.95%
50 - 59                   25,547                      728      314,859           29,029              595               9 8.11% 2.51% 2.33%
60 - 69                   17,782                      499      284,450           26,285          1,297             30 6.25% 1.90% 7.29%
70 - 79                     9,877                      256      183,490           17,354          1,733             32 5.38% 1.48% 17.55%
80+                   10,161                      194      162,367           16,245          3,199             43 6.26% 1.19% 31.48%
                   
                  155,236                  5,804   2,041,440         199,864          7,218           119 7.60% 2.90%

4.65%

 

Note the 7 day positivity rate was low, 2.9%, while the overall death rate stood at 4.65%.

Now for today:

10/21/2020                  
Age Group Confirmed Cases Confirmed in Last 7 Days Tested Tested in Last 7 Days Deaths Deaths in Last 7 Days Positive Rate Positivity Rate in Last 7 Days Death Rate
Unknown                           72                          7      389,454           42,226                 -                -   0.02% 0.02% 0.00%
<20                   46,006                  4,273      816,264           73,663                  7              -   5.64% 5.80% 0.02%
20 - 29                   70,812                  5,789   1,336,843         114,732                36               2 5.30% 5.05% 0.05%
30 - 39                   56,697                  5,028      972,056           71,446              139               1 5.83% 7.04% 0.25%
40 - 49                   55,088                  4,577      838,093           59,301              311               6 6.57% 7.72% 0.56%
50 - 59                   52,825                  4,493      905,093           62,688              735             16 5.84% 7.17% 1.39%
60 - 69                   36,601                  3,221      780,929           52,717          1,604             36 4.69% 6.11% 4.38%
70 - 79                   20,072                  1,802      484,641           31,242          2,257             77 4.14% 5.77% 11.24%
80+                   17,044                  1,284      426,732           30,836          4,256           180 3.99% 4.16% 24.97%
                   
Total                 355,217                30,474   6,950,105         538,851          9,345           318 5.11% 5.66% 2.63%

 

The 7 day positivity rate has been trending up and now stands at 5.66%. Meanwhile, the death rate has made a steady decline from that 4.65% in July to 2.63% now. And that is not a 7 day number, it is a cumulative number. 

The reality in Illinois is that while rates of infection continue to rise, the risk to life has decreased. I do not know if this is through better treatments, changing demographics of who is contracting, a mutation in the virus making it less deadly, all of the above, none of the above, or other. I just know that in Illinois fewer people are dying. That statement holds across all age groups, as well.

The reality in the 1918 flu pandemic is that a vaccine was never developed. The virus mutated from an initially not very deadly virus to an incredibly deadly virus and back again to not very deadly. So it is possible to not have a vaccine AND be able to return to normal. The hard part is there is really no way of knowing this for absolute certain. It is only in retrospect and through careful data gathering and analyzing that we know what has already happened. Cold comfort, for sure, but at least we know it is possible to return to normal even without a vaccine.

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32 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I also generally think anyone who is scared of the “Antifa” is dumb because anyone who’s actually met those “Antifa” types knows at worst they’ll egg your house and at best just keep virtue signaling for their Facebook likes.  

 

Sorry,  but too many nights have led to Police deeming those "mainly peaceful protests" to be riots were confirmed by clear and compelling video evidence. 

 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

 

Sorry,  but too many nights have led to Police deeming those "mainly peaceful protests" to be riots were confirmed by clear and compelling video evidence. 

 

Oh no. The scary hipsters with their outrage and rock throwing and bashing in of local business windows is so scary. They have rocks and screaming, the other side has tear gas, guns and batons. 

I also didn’t say the riots didn’t happen. Additional rounds of Looting in Chicago and other cities have mainly been ignored by both sides btw. 

Again, I’ve been around these people. They’ll get “outraged” and hype themselves up into doing one of their dangerous tantrums.. then be absolutely “shocked” and “outraged” and “upset” that they got tear gassed for being violent rioters.. then go cry about it on Reddit.. 

They neither have the will, means, fortitude, or even unified goal between themselves to be a tenth of the threat they’re made to be. I’ve offended many of them because I’ve told them.. “they’re being just violent enough to get violently repressed, and not violent enough to actually get the change they supposedly want”

They’re laughable and too torn by typical hardcore left wing subdivisions of groupings. 

but if you want to feel actually threatened by the college hipster who has used safe spaces.. go on right ahead
 

 

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

You sure are confused easily...the argument isn't about the mask wearing in and of itself...the argument is around the government mandating it (so you understand...some people don't like that the government puts controls on ones life, even if you do like that they do that) and the argument is about the overall effectiveness of masks on the spread (if you truly are open minded you will find just as much commentary on the ineffectiveness as the effectiveness of cloth masks).  In regards to that...it is funny how people can sit and make statements about "you don't believe the science?"...yet turn around and use completely unscientific "studies" (in actuality are just opinion pieces) that use assumptions, empirical observations, and vague data correlations to support the narrative that wearing a cloth face covering/mask some how is the end all be all for stopping the spread.

All I have to say about your Antifa comment is WOW.....

Have you ever actually been around those idiots? They tear themselves apart over whether certain races, genders or orientations are “true members”. 
 
I have not met a single person.. no matter how hard core conservative or liberal.. who’s actually met those “Antifa types” who takes them seriously. It’s always people looking at crap online or on the news who freak out about them. 


oh and I never said I like the government controlling me. Not at all. I just said all the tantrum’s about the mask make people look soft... dude.

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6 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Oh no. The scary hipsters with their outrage and rock throwing and bashing in of local business windows is so scary. They have rocks and screaming, the other side has tear gas, guns and batons. 

I also didn’t say the riots didn’t happen. Additional rounds of Looting in Chicago and other cities have mainly been ignored by both sides btw. 

Again, I’ve been around these people. They’ll get “outraged” and hype themselves up into doing one of their dangerous tantrums.. then be absolutely “shocked” and “outraged” and “upset” that they got tear gassed for being violent rioters.. then go cry about it on Reddit.. 

They neither have the will, means, fortitude, or even unified goal between themselves to be a tenth of the threat they’re made to be. I’ve offended many of them because I’ve told them.. “they’re being just violent enough to get violently repressed, and not violent enough to actually get the change they supposedly want”

They’re laughable and too torn by typical hardcore left wing subdivisions of groupings. 

but if you want to feel actually threatened by the college hipster who has used safe spaces.. go on right ahead
 

 

 

The Department of Homeland Security disagrees with you. I'll take their word over yours. 

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