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lu1979

NLWC Event - PSU's future

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I watched all of the matches from the NLWC event yesterday (couldn't watch live).  Not that this is a surprise to anyone but the future for PSU is so bright Cael needs to wear shades. Starocci dominated a very good past AA in Skatzka.  Kerkvliet looked awesome against Thomas who entered the cancelled 2020 tourney seeded 7th.  He is going to be right there with Gable and Parris.  Beau Bartlett looked great in a losing effort against a 2X Finalist.  Beard looked OK against a top 10 type guy in Bulsak although he seems to need to work on his gas tank.  The last PSU newcomer who hasn't been talked about as much was Terrel Barraclough.  He did very well against past AA Kyle Shoop.  He could give PSU another option at 149 or 157 in the future.  In any case PSU supporters have to be happy about how their new guys looked.

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One thing I see in these young guys that PSU has is that they are appearing to be very good right now, but they all look like they have serious athletic potential and could become much better than even their current versions.  Crazy with all of these guys mentioned and there is still Aaron Brooks.  Beard also is a big and impressive looking guy, I think there is a lot of potential there.

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On 10/23/2020 at 12:50 PM, lu1979 said:

...In any case PSU supporters have to be happy about how their new guys looked.

PSU supporters haven't been unhappy with their team since when, 2010? Maybe? I don't even think they were unhappy with them in 2015 in all honesty. Defending, reigning and current NCAA champions. AND the best team in the last ten years.  Not much to bellyache about. 

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9 minutes ago, AKHUNTER said:

defending...... ok I'll give you that one......... but in my humble opinion........there is NO reigning or current.

First search on Google:

"The reigning champion is the most recent winner of a contest or competition at the time you are talking about."

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+reigning+champion+mean&oq=what+does.reigning&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0i22i30i457j0i22i30l3.4450j0j7&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

By definition Penn State is the reigning NCAA Division 1 Men's Wrestling Champions.

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14 hours ago, Mphillips said:

Reigning and current champions.  How couldn't they be?  

I think you have to consider them the reigning champions but I definitely wouldn’t call them the current champions. Two seasons ago isn’t current. I would say there is no current champion unless you want to award it to Iowa like they handed out all American honors

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They aren't defending anything. They don't lose their old title if they don't win. Just like using "former" champ - you don't actually use it. So if you hear me talking about individuals, I'll call them "past champions" or "past All-Americans" but not "former champions" because unless they've been stripped, they're still a champion. 

It's not a championship belt that trades hands. Then you're a former champion if you're a boxer who lost a title fight. 

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54 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

They aren't defending anything. They don't lose their old title if they don't win. Just like using "former" champ - you don't actually use it. So if you hear me talking about individuals, I'll call them "past champions" or "past All-Americans" but not "former champions" because unless they've been stripped, they're still a champion. 

It's not a championship belt that trades hands. Then you're a former champion if you're a boxer who lost a title fight. 

It is a bit of semantics, but I would argue that they are defending being the current champ, if they are in the bracket at the same weight class.  They aren't defending a belt, but they are defending the "title"......

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On 10/23/2020 at 12:50 PM, lu1979 said:

I watched all of the matches from the NLWC event yesterday (couldn't watch live).  Not that this is a surprise to anyone but the future for PSU is so bright Cael needs to wear shades. Starocci dominated a very good past AA in Skatzka.  Kerkvliet looked awesome against Thomas who entered the cancelled 2020 tourney seeded 7th.  He is going to be right there with Gable and Parris.  Beau Bartlett looked great in a losing effort against a 2X Finalist.  Beard looked OK against a top 10 type guy in Bulsak although he seems to need to work on his gas tank.  The last PSU newcomer who hasn't been talked about as much was Terrel Barraclough.  He did very well against past AA Kyle Shoop.  He could give PSU another option at 149 or 157 in the future.  In any case PSU supporters have to be happy about how their new guys looked.

I'm high on PSU, but I don't think we learned that much. Skatzka is not a past AA and is incredibly inconsistent. He got rocked by Kemerer a couple times last year too. Starocci is a finalist threat, but most thought that before the match. Thomas was coming off a senior nationals performance where he got lit up by tanner hall and then lost to Christian Lance on the backside. Kerk did what he should have been expected to do. Bartlett was impressive hanging with Meredith, but hard to tell how that translates. Beard still struggles with his tank and looks like the same guy he was when he got there 2 years ago. And Shoop is almost a 100% crosswrist tilt guy, so not surprising he didn't translate to freestyle well. He also was a bit of a one hit wonder at the tournament two years ago. 

Not saying PSU isn't super talented, but we haven't seen them wrestle anybody that should change anyone's mind about what they are imo.

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10 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

I'm high on PSU, but I don't think we learned that much. Skatzka is not a past AA and is incredibly inconsistent. He got rocked by Kemerer a couple times last year too. Starocci is a finalist threat, but most thought that before the match. Thomas was coming off a senior nationals performance where he got lit up by tanner hall and then lost to Christian Lance on the backside. Kerk did what he should have been expected to do. Bartlett was impressive hanging with Meredith, but hard to tell how that translates. Beard still struggles with his tank and looks like the same guy he was when he got there 2 years ago. And Shoop is almost a 100% crosswrist tilt guy, so not surprising he didn't translate to freestyle well. He also was a bit of a one hit wonder at the tournament two years ago. 

Not saying PSU isn't super talented, but we haven't seen them wrestle anybody that should change anyone's mind about what they are imo.

I disagree.  You are correct that none of these victories are shocking results, and from a quantitative standpoint I don't imagine any minds should be changed.

From a qualitative standpoint, I observed something entirely different than what you did.  From the manner in which the victories were secured, to the skills demonstrated, to the athletic potential and technical progress displayed, my mind was changed dramatically regarding what could be in the future for this PSU crop.  Like you, I expected NLWC victories in each of these matches and also thought Bartlett would acquit himself well as he did.  This does not mean that in an expected victory, an athlete cannot show greater ability and potential.  

Maybe that isn't what you saw, and in a discussion where we are attempting to measure the unmeasurables, your perspective is welcome.  I saw something different, where the unmeasurables seemed off the charts regardless of the inferior competition, and it was enough to make me reconsider where PSU may fit into the championship landscape in the immediate future.

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7 hours ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

I disagree.  You are correct that none of these victories are shocking results, and from a quantitative standpoint I don't imagine any minds should be changed.

From a qualitative standpoint, I observed something entirely different than what you did.  From the manner in which the victories were secured, to the skills demonstrated, to the athletic potential and technical progress displayed, my mind was changed dramatically regarding what could be in the future for this PSU crop.  Like you, I expected NLWC victories in each of these matches and also thought Bartlett would acquit himself well as he did.  This does not mean that in an expected victory, an athlete cannot show greater ability and potential.  

Maybe that isn't what you saw, and in a discussion where we are attempting to measure the unmeasurables, your perspective is welcome.  I saw something different, where the unmeasurables seemed off the charts regardless of the inferior competition, and it was enough to make me reconsider where PSU may fit into the championship landscape in the immediate future.

The thing is, PSU almost always looks this way against guys they should beat.  As such, it makes it actually HARDER, not easier, to gauge just how good they are.  Now, I definitely didn't see anything less than what I expected.  But, it is really hard to say who did more. 

You have to remember, an event like this is slanted in PSU's favor about as much as is possible.  Just like the event coming up for Iowa.  Hell, even Brands basically said that all the opponents were "hand picked" for the best situation for each wrestler.

With that said, I don't plan on taking too much out of Iowa's performance, unless they underperform.  To me, this is more about getting guys matches and maybe making the RTC some money on the side.  

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I don't think the NLWC event made it harder to gauge where the new crop of PSU wrestlers is at.  I doubt coming into this event that anyone thought they were all going to be the next DT or Jason Nolf.  I would guess that most felt they would see wrestlers with varying degrees of progress, but they just hadn't seen them in so long they didn't know where they were on the scale of their progression. This event clarified some things for JHRose and I am guessing it did so for lots of others too.

Being a PSU fan first I feel I have a good sense of where those wrestlers were coming into this recent event  I was just looking for confirmation or clarification on some things. For fans not quite as in tune with the PSU guys, I think they saw some pretty positive things. Maybe they didn't know just how good Starocci was going to look. And btw, coming out of high school I knew Starocci would be good, but he has gotten to a high level faster than I expected. 

Didn't Bartlett get 3 TD's vs Meredith and wouldn't those TD's have also scored in folk? Yes. How many guys have scored 3 TD's vs Meredith in NCAA wrestling? Not many. So there is some clarification for some fans. 

How many college guys have totally dominated D. Thomas for 3 minutes? How many fans wondered about Kerkvliet's health/athleticism post injury? With RBY I think pretty much everyone expected him to wrestle well. 

The one guy that I had a question about that wasn't answered in the best possible light was Beard. I wanted to see a better gas tank and that failed to materialize. Hopefully that is more rust and less an ongoing thing for him, but the question wasn't answered in the best possible way. Still, a win over a top 10 guy so not too shabby. 

 

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12 hours ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

I disagree.  You are correct that none of these victories are shocking results, and from a quantitative standpoint I don't imagine any minds should be changed.

From a qualitative standpoint, I observed something entirely different than what you did.  From the manner in which the victories were secured, to the skills demonstrated, to the athletic potential and technical progress displayed, my mind was changed dramatically regarding what could be in the future for this PSU crop.  Like you, I expected NLWC victories in each of these matches and also thought Bartlett would acquit himself well as he did.  This does not mean that in an expected victory, an athlete cannot show greater ability and potential.  

Maybe that isn't what you saw, and in a discussion where we are attempting to measure the unmeasurables, your perspective is welcome.  I saw something different, where the unmeasurables seemed off the charts regardless of the inferior competition, and it was enough to make me reconsider where PSU may fit into the championship landscape in the immediate future.

MSU said it well here: "The thing is, PSU almost always looks this way against guys they should beat." I watched a lot of Starocci last year and he did exactly what I expected him to do. I have him as the second best 174 behind Kemerer and I think that match is going to be wild. So him beating up on a guy I expected him to beat up doesn't change my mind about anything. Same for Kerkvliet. I think he's a top 3 guy and is a freestyle age level world champ. 

As for Bartlett, it's hard to say because Meredith isn't a great freestyler (or is at least inconsistent). He had similar matches with Alirez a couple years ago and Alirez didn't light the world on fire his first year (though he was still very good). Meredith's best skills are folkstyle specific (riding and scrambling). I like Bartlett, but I don't know if I learned that much.

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5 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I don't think the NLWC event made it harder to gauge where the new crop of PSU wrestlers is at.  I doubt coming into this event that anyone thought they were all going to be the next DT or Jason Nolf.  I would guess that most felt they would see wrestlers with varying degrees of progress, but they just hadn't seen them in so long they didn't know where they were on the scale of their progression. This event clarified some things for JHRose and I am guessing it did so for lots of others too.

Being a PSU fan first I feel I have a good sense of where those wrestlers were coming into this recent event  I was just looking for confirmation or clarification on some things. For fans not quite as in tune with the PSU guys, I think they saw some pretty positive things. Maybe they didn't know just how good Starocci was going to look. And btw, coming out of high school I knew Starocci would be good, but he has gotten to a high level faster than I expected. 

Didn't Bartlett get 3 TD's vs Meredith and wouldn't those TD's have also scored in folk? Yes. How many guys have scored 3 TD's vs Meredith in NCAA wrestling? Not many. So there is some clarification for some fans. 

How many college guys have totally dominated D. Thomas for 3 minutes? How many fans wondered about Kerkvliet's health/athleticism post injury? With RBY I think pretty much everyone expected him to wrestle well. 

The one guy that I had a question about that wasn't answered in the best possible light was Beard. I wanted to see a better gas tank and that failed to materialize. Hopefully that is more rust and less an ongoing thing for him, but the question wasn't answered in the best possible way. Still, a win over a top 10 guy so not too shabby. 

 

For clarification, I did NOT expect much out of guys that have recently graduated from programs with less than stellar RTC's(or none at all).  So, dominating Skatzka, Shoop and even keeping it close with Meredith wasn't much of a gauge to me.  Were they really even in wrestling shape?  Skatzka and Shoop sure didn't look like it and Meredith is looking more like Heil than Yianni, post College.  

Gauging a couple of takedowns with freestyle scoring to decide how good Kerkvliet is is also hard.  Yes, he is CLEARLY way ahead of Thomas.  But, with riding and a 285 slowing it way down Folkstyle match, does that even turn into a Major Decision?

Simply put, these matches did little to tell me these guys were anything more or less than what I thought they were.  I have learned not to get too head over heals over big margin wins in off season freestyle matches.  Is PSU going to be a front runner for the team title(if we even have a tournament this season)?  Absolutely, but nothing from this event should have made people think that if they didn't already..............If they didn't already, they haven't been following wrestling the past 10 years, let alone the current PSU roster!

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

For clarification, I did NOT expect much out of guys that have recently graduated from programs with less than stellar RTC's(or none at all).  So, dominating Skatzka, Shoop and even keeping it close with Meredith wasn't much of a gauge to me.  Were they really even in wrestling shape?  Skatzka and Shoop sure didn't look like it and Meredith is looking more like Heil than Yianni, post College.  

Gauging a couple of takedowns with freestyle scoring to decide how good Kerkvliet is is also hard.  Yes, he is CLEARLY way ahead of Thomas.  But, with riding and a 285 slowing it way down Folkstyle match, does that even turn into a Major Decision?

Simply put, these matches did little to tell me these guys were anything more or less than what I thought they were.  I have learned not to get too head over heals over big margin wins in off season freestyle matches.  Is PSU going to be a front runner for the team title(if we even have a tournament this season)?  Absolutely, but nothing from this event should have made people think that if they didn't already..............If they didn't already, they haven't been following wrestling the past 10 years, let alone the current PSU roster!

Absolutely this. Go watch Gable v. Cass in freestyle v. folkstyle. Neither competitive, but the final scores were drastically different.

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