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So Burroughs Missed weight vs martinez?

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5 hours ago, ConnorsDad said:

You are missing the point IMO. HE MISSED WEIGHT! There is nothing more sacred in the sport than the fact that a person has to make weight at the designated time in order to wrestle. PERIOD! END OF STORY! That is the line. You can't say he was only over a couple of ounces. So if someone is a pound over, is that too much? Where is the cutoff? ...Its at the weight limit during weigh ins.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT HAPPENED!!!

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I was in a Lincoln bar missing my own weight goals, so don't yell at the ocean with this recollection as a source.  They had the weigh ins on a big screen.   He missed weight.  Then he immediately dropped his drawers - naked in front of God and everybody! - stepped on the scale and everybody left happy.

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Many of you are coming up with alternate ways to determine the team if he missed weight - extend the time, etc. so we get the "best guy" at the weight. Making weight is as much a part of it as anything else. Are they going to do that at worlds? If you show up late for your match do you still get to wrestle but the other wrestler gets 2 pts.? 4? You make weight at a set time. If you don't, your not the best guy at that weight on that day. Would Imar have received the same chance? What about Snyder @ 97? What if the best guy is 1 lb. over? 2 lb.? If it was you or your kid, you would scream bloody ****ing murder and rightfully so. You do anything but exactly what the rules say then you are opening up a Pandora's box. Its utterly ridiculous.

Edited by ConnorsDad

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1 hour ago, ConnorsDad said:

Many of you are coming up with alternate ways to determine the team if he missed weight - extend the time, etc. so we get the "best guy" at the weight. Making weight is as much a part of it as anything else. Are they going to do that at worlds? If you show up late for your match do you still get to wrestle but the other wrestler gets 2 pts.? 4? You make weight at a set time. If you don't, your not the best guy at that weight on that day. Would Imar have received the same chance? What about Snyder @ 97? What if the best guy is 1 lb. over? 2 lb.? If it was you or your kid, you would scream bloody ****ing murder and rightfully so. You do anything but exactly what the rules say then you are opening up a Pandora's box. Its utterly ridiculous.

I would want my kid to make the world team by actually beating the the guy. I don’t think too many people would want to win by a missed weigh in. It’s not a good situation either way, but like it or not, WTT are more like a wrestle off than an actual competition because the governing body has every right to just appoint who they feel is best. I don’t want it to come to that either but I feel reasonable compromises are acceptable. 

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USAW “has” to abide by their established rules and criteria for selecting a team which are spelled out explicitly every year...

Fir the most part, that is making weight and winning the “competitions” we have in place...

Compromising any of those procedures compromises the entire org and everyone associated...

being okay with that is extremely telling...

 

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If JB has to cut for another 30 minutes because of weight management issues, then maybe he doesn’t have the same sprint at the end of match 1 to win; match 2 ends with the same outcome; no match 3.

 

My opinion though as an Illini fan is that Imar  made weight, didn’t make excuses, and made a hell of a series. He got a raw deal because his opponent didn’t hold up his end of the bargain but at the end of the day when you’re the GOAT then the refs give you the calls at the end of the game. He wanted to earn it like a champ and he’s rightfully upset that he was glossed over by JB when he just handed him an L and almost sent him packing.

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5 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

If JB has to cut for another 30 minutes because of weight management issues, then maybe he doesn’t have the same sprint at the end of match 1 to win; match 2 ends with the same outcome; no match 3.

 

My opinion though as an Illini fan is that Imar  made weight, didn’t make excuses, and made a hell of a series. He got a raw deal because his opponent didn’t hold up his end of the bargain but at the end of the day when you’re the GOAT then the refs give you the calls at the end of the game. He wanted to earn it like a champ and he’s rightfully upset that he was glossed over by JB when he just handed him an L and almost sent him packing.

Imar wrestled well... gave JB more than I thought he would...

but...

to bring this up now is just sour grapes and not a good look...

if there was in fact shenanigans at the weigh in and he went ahead and wrestled anyway with no complaints, then he should just keep his mouth shut about it forever more...

if you want to tell the story to sell 8 copies of you autobiography in 20 years, I’m ok with it then...

 

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Here’s another way to look at it... let’s say this happens in 2017 to Snyder. KS is .1 kg over and the spot is given to Gadsen (who got teched in two consecutive matches by Snyder that year). Gadsen fails to medal and the US falls to Russia yet again. If that had happened we would’ve denied the whole country our first world championship in how ever many years. And we would’ve denied ourselves of what I consider to be one of the best matches of all time... Snyder beating Sadulaev for the individual and team world championship.

I don’t want to see rules broken but I do want to see the best team. I’m just saying maybe there could be some compromise to ensure what’s best for the country? It’s a very tough situation but it seems that maybe there was some sort of leeway allowed. 

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What’s “best” for the country and our athletes is to have clearly defined rules and to follow them no matter what... not just when it is easy or when benefits it you...

but...

again...

being okay with not following rules when it doesn’t suit your particular wants is telling indeed...

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To further clarify, I am not advocating to break any rules that USA wrestling already had in place. They set the rules and can change them year to year, but not moment by moment. Do the rules specifically say you must be weighed in exactly 2 hours before the event? If not, you could use option 1 and give more time. Do the rules specifically say that if someone misses weight, they forfeit the whole series? If not, you could use option 2 and just forfeit a match. Maybe there are other options as well but maybe not and it just sucks for the whole country.

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4 minutes ago, LJB said:

What’s “best” for the country and our athletes is to have clearly defined rules and to follow them no matter what... not just when it is easy or when benefits it you...

but...

again...

being okay with not following rules when it doesn’t suit your particular wants is telling indeed...

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying... for once, I actually agree with you on this. I’m asking is there a way to let them wrestle and get the best team WITHIN the rules.

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4 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying... for once, I actually agree with you on this. I’m asking is there a way to let them wrestle and get the best team WITHIN the rules.

I’m not misinterpreting what you have said and then tried to justify repeatedly...

weigh in rules are clearly stated... perhaps you should read up on them...

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8 minutes ago, LJB said:

I’m not misinterpreting what you have said and then tried to justify repeatedly...

weigh in rules are clearly stated... perhaps you should read up on them...

Yes that would be a good idea... do you have a link where I can find them? Thanks!

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You can't have it both ways. Either you want the best team or you want the rules followed. There's no middle ground. We would all like to get the spot by beating the man but if he doesn't make weight then so be it. I will say that if you don't bring it up at the time not exactly a good look to bring it up 3-4 months later.

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42 minutes ago, LJB said:

What’s “best” for the country and our athletes is to have clearly defined rules and to follow them no matter what... not just when it is easy or when benefits it you...

but...

again...

being okay with not following rules when it doesn’t suit your particular wants is telling indeed...

 Finally. Somebody put it in a way that I couldn't seem to I was so p***** off. We all want to follow the rules until it benefits us not to. If you don't make weight you don't get to wrestle.

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I can not believe anything that ConnorsDad is saying here is even remotely controversial.  You have to make the freaking weight like everyone else! Are you all kidding me?

 

Side note: Imar can execute a Geduev game plan and absolutely beat Burroughs.  He lost discipline a couple times in those matches and Burroughs made him pay, but he is absolutely capable. 

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The rage , the rage!!!

I agree, follow the rules, if JB misses weight, then do as the rules say.    Whether what exactly happened back then seems to be in contention and nothing is given as fact or evidence given.  

 

Why is Imar bringing this up now?   

 

 

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On 11/8/2020 at 5:05 PM, GoNotQuietly said:

I can not believe anything that ConnorsDad is saying here is even remotely controversial.  You have to make the freaking weight like everyone else! Are you all kidding me?

 

Side note: Imar can execute a Geduev game plan and absolutely beat Burroughs.  He lost discipline a couple times in those matches and Burroughs made him pay, but he is absolutely capable. 

 

22 hours ago, sisi said:

The rage , the rage!!!

I agree, follow the rules, if JB misses weight, then do as the rules say.    Whether what exactly happened back then seems to be in contention and nothing is given as fact or evidence given.  

 

Why is Imar bringing this up now?   

 

 

GNQ,  You. I just am like LJB In that it seems everybody wants to follow the rules until it benefits him not to. Sisi, I will admit bringing it up all this many months later is certainly BS in my mind.

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On 11/8/2020 at 7:05 PM, GoNotQuietly said:

I can not believe anything that ConnorsDad is saying here is even remotely controversial.  You have to make the freaking weight like everyone else! Are you all kidding me? 

This. 

If the 5x world champ doesn't make weight, you can say, Geez, that's too bad, we probably won't have as good a chance to medal as if he'd made weight and qualified.  But you can't say, No problem, it's ok for you to not make weight but still wrestle for the spot.  It totally blows up pillars of the sport, including that it is conducted by weight class and that you earn medals by performance in a fair competition, not by reputation.  

That being said, the only direct evidence we have that Burroughs was allowed to break the rules comes from a vague and angry tweet from Martinez.  Why did he wait?  I assume he's been stewing about things that happened that day, whatever they were, for some time. 

If there was an issue, it was probably complicated, as these things always are. Someone above suggested he weighed in naked at weight after failing to make it in his singlet.  That would be a perfect example of a complex situation that would have put Martinez in a difficult position. 

By some common sense interpretations, if he weighs 74.0 naked, then he is at his weight, but by the plain language of the rules that were linked to above in the thread, he has to be at weight in his competition singlet.  Absolutely no room for interpretation.  If you're over 74.0 in your singlet, you can't compete.  But you'd have to know and properly apply the rule in order to disqualify someone who actually in real life weighs 74.0 kg (but 74 point something with a singlet on).

So what might have happened?  Let's say he got on the scale in his singlet and the number popped up 74.03, and being the alpha guy that he is, he just took charge of the situation, pulled off the singlet, got back on, and it said 73.99.  He then flexes, flashes that big smile, puts on his singlet, and sprints out of the room and back to the hotel, all in just a few seconds, while Manning and Snyder go up to the competition committee and say, Boy, that was close, good thing he got under 74.

I could see, particularly since the competitor in question is the modern John Smith who the thousands of paying customers in his adopted home town want to watch wrestle, an unrigorous person in a decision making capacity say, He's 73.99, that's what the scale says, let's move on to the next item on the agenda, then by the time somebody pulls out the rule book, no one has the balls to do the right thing.  the Illinois guys might have thought it was wrong, but not had a copy of the rule book on them, and also felt uncomfortable beefing about Jordan Burroughs in a room full of USA Wrestling people who they interpreted as wanting the match to happen. 

Things like this happen a lot, and if a wrong decision is made under time pressure, and the person "getting away" with it is royalty, it makes it that harder to get it right.  Then the person who gets the short end is put in a really bad situation which might lead to a less than graceful complaint when his frustration finally blows for whatever reason.

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42 minutes ago, LJB said:

he did not weigh in naked...

he borrowed a singlet at the weigh in area after weighing heavy in the one he walked up in...

That would move us from unambiguously out of compliance to potential ambiguity, depending on the details of the borrowed singlet.

The relevant dot points in the weigh in rules that were linked to above read:

  • The contestants will be weighed wearing their “competition singlet* without modifications and without their shoes after having been examined by qualified trainers and/or physicians who are obliged to eliminate any wrestler who presents any danger of contagious disease.
  • No weight tolerance will be allowed for the singlet at any age level.

The * after competition singlet (in the rules, there is an asterisk that closes the opened quote around "competition singlet") corresponds to a footnote that reads:

*Officials responsible for the weigh-in must check that the wrestler’s singlet is the singlet they will use for the competition. The singlet must be colored predominantly a clearly distinguishable shade of red or blue or one that mimics the UWW color scheme assuming the following criteria are met:  [Then there is a long list of guidelines regarding colors, etc.]

If Burroughs did not then use the borrowed singlet in the competition (because it didn't meet the color requirements or didn't fit right or for some other reason), then I think that the rules on their face required disqualification.  You can't weigh in in a singlet that you aren't going to wear on the mat.

You might also be able to make the argument that, by stepping on the scale with his first singlet, he was proffering that singlet as his "competition singlet," and if he was over 74 in that singlet, he's not allowed to try again with a different singlet.  Not as clear cut an argument, though -- if he proceeded to wrestle in the borrowed singlet.

But good luck identifying and then raising a footnote in the rules if you're Martinez and coaches in the middle of that fray after Jordan Burroughs makes weight while wearing a singlet in Lincoln, Nebraska.  Again, the complexity of the situation would explain why he didn't argue then and why he stewed for months before lashing out after he felt he was dissed by the Burroughs -Taylor marketing tweets.

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none of the above is wrong as per...

i will only say that "their competition singlet" has only ever been enforced at the national duals because it is easy there...

most i know have a "weigh in singlet"...

this one weighs .15 lbs... that one weighs .2 lbs... 

which one will you use?

there were all sorts of rumors at the time... it was discussed here as well...

in my mind, i could not possibly care less what singlet JB used to weigh in... he had a singlet and his weight was recorded as being on point...

but, there were a bunch of skeptical hippo eyes at the time...

imar went with it at the time...

he should keep his mouth shut about it now even if his little ego got bruised by an interview... it was his choice... be a man and stand by your own decisions...

 

 

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

none of the above is wrong as per...

i will only say that "their competition singlet" has only ever been enforced at the national duals because it is easy there...

most i know have a "weigh in singlet"...

this one weighs .15 lbs... that one weighs .2 lbs... 

which one will you use?

there were all sorts of rumors at the time... it was discussed here as well...

in my mind, i could not possibly care less what singlet JB used to weigh in... he had a singlet and his weight was recorded as being on point...

but, there were a bunch of skeptical hippo eyes at the time...

imar went with it at the time...

he should keep his mouth shut about it now even if his little ego got bruised by an interview... it was his choice... be a man and stand by your own decisions...

 

 

Don't disagree. Good info and good practical analysis. 

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