Ivy League just cancels all Winter Sports

[MSU158 2,044]

45 minutes ago, Drake_Mallard said:

I work with construction projects nationally.

You build a foundation that doesnt meet code in Cali where mudslides and earthquakes happen, the issue isnt the profit margin. People can die. 

Im not talking about AHamilton. I am talking about building codes. Sacrificing safety so contractors can make a quick buck most certainly looks like a loss of civility in society to me. 

I think the issue you are making about construction codes is TOO selective.  I would bet 99% of GC's would NOT risk issues with a foundation in Cali.  Being a GC, you just don't even begin to try to "cut" that corner.  The majority of code ignoring would revolve around mainly trades like plumbing and HVAC.  Not pulling a permit to replace fixtures in a bathroom or a furnace are what are most common and that is more simply about not pulling a permit vs. not following the code(which is usually still done).  

As far as electricians go, I don't know any that aren't already designed to do things by code.  There is just so very little value increase.  What aren't you going to do that would save you that much money and time?  Add on that a vast majority KNOW that they are probably the biggest trade risk in a home for causing a fire and I just don't believe a significant percentage of LICENSED electricians would cheat.

Finally, I think your percentage would come down to homeowner's doing the work themselves and simply doing things incorrectly.  Finished basements are a big thing in Michigan and I walk into SOOO many that are "homeowner's specials".  Many of them don't even think about pulling a permit.......

[MSU158 2,044]

15 minutes ago, klehner said:

I asked why you think that you are allowed to decide, for yourself, which laws/regulations make sense and you'll follow.  I further asked what would happen if everyone decided for themselves in the same manner.  You referenced South Korea or something.  I didn't ask about wearing a mask on a mountain trail, did I?  You didn't address if you believe that people should go 100mph on a highway if they felt it was safe for them to do so.  This isn't about what *you* personally do (and thanks for wearing a mask in the grocery store), or what *I* personally do.

How close is too close, or how crowded is too crowded in the outdoors such that masks are to be worn?  Who decides?  You?

Is wearing a mask even an enforceable law?  In Michigan, the Supreme Court ruled against Gov. Whitmer and her newest "order" is getting some serious blowback.  She has "ordered" bars and restaurants to shutdown again and many are refusing since another lockdown will almost certainly shut them down for good and there is no funding available to fall back on.  

The simple truth is most of this is NOT legally enforceable and are SUGGESTIONS.  Now, I personally am following the suggestions and they have done very well so far for my daughter(been attending school in-person since August) and my family.  However, I CAN see how many others would see at least part of this as an infringement.  As long as they aren't doing things to directly cause risk to others, I can see their side.

Edited November 17, 2020 by MSU158

[TBar1977 4,608]

3 hours ago, klehner said:

I asked why you think that you are allowed to decide, for yourself, which laws/regulations make sense and you'll follow.  I further asked what would happen if everyone decided for themselves in the same manner.  You referenced South Korea or something.  I didn't ask about wearing a mask on a mountain trail, did I?  You didn't address if you believe that people should go 100mph on a highway if they felt it was safe for them to do so.  This isn't about what *you* personally do (and thanks for wearing a mask in the grocery store), or what *I* personally do.

How close is too close, or how crowded is too crowded in the outdoors such that masks are to be worn?  Who decides?  You?

Regarding your first bolded point, everyone decides for themselves which laws they will follow, and I would guess 99 percent of people who do not have criminal records follow about 99 percent of the laws. So each person already DOES decide for themselves. I didn't respond exactly like this the first time because you brought into question the breakdown of civil society arising from not following laws and I countered that non adherence to unconstitutional edicts isn't the thing to worry about when people are literally killing each other in the street at 2x the rate of last year while others are creating anarchy in the street. I stated the POV that the breakdown of civil society has already begun all the while you fret over someone wearing a mask while outdoors. My response was meant to jog your sensibilities back towards more important issues. 

Regarding your second bolded point, who decides how close is too close? Yes, I decide for myself how close is too close. I must make this decision 50 times just shopping for groceries. And guess what, so does everyone else. No edict and no law can enforce 6 foot social distancing. It just isn't workable. You gotta pass people in the aisle. Who decides how much is too crowded? The Mayor of Phila. wrongly believes its him. So does the Governor in Michigan and Wisconsin. I am happy the Courts have decided otherwise in plenty of these cases.

Edited November 18, 2020 by TBar1977

[Drake_Mallard 373]

3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

I think the issue you are making about construction codes is TOO selective. 

I do a lot of homes in the mountains and on the coasts. Foundations are a big deal, but you may be right. Im biased by my own experience.

 

3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Finally, I think your percentage would come down to homeowner's doing the work themselves and simply doing things incorrectly.  Finished basements are a big thing in Michigan and I walk into SOOO many that are "homeowner's specials".  Many of them don't even think about pulling a permit.......

This. This is what Im talking about.

[TBar1977 4,608]

4 hours ago, Drake_Mallard said:

As someone who works in the industry, this is not true TBar. A lot of people would cut corners to save a buck, convinced that structural/electrical issues would never happen to them. I speak to people on the daily who want to bypass local building regulations.

 

4 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

There will always be some like that, but I'm not in agreement with that view. So ok, let's add up the tally here.

AHamilton's line in the sand is the government forcing him to wear a mask when outdoors far away from the maddening crowd.

Your builder friend's line in the sand is bothersome building codes that prevent him from expanding his profit margin.

Someone else's line in the sand is rioting, looting, assault and battery and arson.

I don't think AHamilton is the problem with or the cause of loss of civility in society. 

 

4 hours ago, Drake_Mallard said:

I work with construction projects nationally.

You build a foundation that doesnt meet code in Cali where mudslides and earthquakes happen, the issue isnt the profit margin. People can die. 

Im not talking about AHamilton. I am talking about building codes. Sacrificing safety so contractors can make a quick buck most certainly looks like a loss of civility in society to me. 

I literally responded to what YOU wrote. What you literally wrote. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by TBar1977

[klehner 756]

3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Is wearing a mask even an enforceable law?  In Michigan, the Supreme Court ruled against Gov. Whitmer and her newest "order" is getting some serious blowback.  She has "ordered" bars and restaurants to shutdown again and many are refusing since another lockdown will almost certainly shut them down for good and there is no funding available to fall back on.  

The simple truth is most of this is NOT legally enforceable and are SUGGESTIONS.  Now, I personally am following the suggestions and they have done very well so far for my daughter(been attending school in-person since August) and my family.  However, I CAN see how many others would see at least part of this as an infringement.  As long as they aren't doing things to directly cause risk to others, I can see their side.

I agree about the "enforceable" bit, but that seems to me to be a difference without distinction.  All epidemiologists and virologists and other informed health experts (I'm not talking about Scott Atlas here) agree on what we should do as far as mask wearing:  does it take a law for common sense to prevail?

Do you trust others to not do things that directly cause risk to others?  I certainly don't:  just look around.

[Drake_Mallard 373]

4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

 

I literally responded to what YOU wrote. What you literally wrote. 

Honestly, Im having a hard time keeping up with what your saying. Youre lumping my convo in with another. I didnt read far back enough to know what your talking about with the "line in the sand" thing. I was talking just about what I quoted. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Drake_Mallard

[HokieHWT 593]

Since I don’t know how to put up a poll, I’ll ask this, feel free to respond:

Do any of you currently work in, or have a degree in any of the following fields:

public health, virology, biostatistics, genetics, epidemiology, molecular biology, medicine?

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by HokieHWT

[Drake_Mallard 373]

Just now, HokieHWT said:

Since I don’t know how to put up a poll, I’ll ask this, feel free to respond:

Do you currently work in, or have a degree in a any of the following fields:

public health, virology, biostatistics, genetics, epidemiology, molecular biology, medicine?

 

No.

[HokieHWT 593]

And I’m not trying to prove a point, I’m actually quite interested in if anyone has done any empirical research. Hell, I’d even like to some secondary analyses on publicly available data.

[red blades 368]

29 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

Since I don’t know how to put up a poll, I’ll ask this, feel free to respond:

Do any of you currently work in, or have a degree in any of the following fields:

public health, virology, biostatistics, genetics, epidemiology, molecular biology, medicine?

 

No; but my sister has a PhD in molecular biology.  She thinks we're all idiots.

[HokieHWT 593]

1 minute ago, red blades said:

No; but my sister has a PhD in molecular biology.  She thinks we're all idiots.

She’s a very intelligent woman, on multiple fronts.

[Janderson133 21]

11 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

She’s a very intelligent woman, on multiple fronts.

See, this is what I like. Fun talk - making fun of a bunch of people arguing about government overreach on a wrestling message board. Kudos sir!

[cu155 32]

7 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I have news for you, civil societies are in jeopardy and not just here in the USA. You miss what happened in Hong Kong this summer? You miss all the riots here in the USA that none of your Left Wing leaders were anywhere near demonstrative enough in their condemnation thereof? They basically stoked those rioters on. Is it any wonder people on the right don't trust you or your version of leadership anymore. When you fail to earn people's trust, then yes you are going to see an erosion in civility. That lack of civility has already turned riotous and dangerous on the left.  It is already happening man, and it is no "myth". 

Now the other side, far more civil, while not rioting is starting to question your authority. That's the way it is. 

Interesting that you bring up Hong Kong, which leads to a discussion of China and its response to the virus.  A country with more than 1 billion people that has effectively contained the virus despite early missteps, in large part because a combination of public health regulations were put in place.  People can argue about 'freedom' all they want but the reality is that someone in China currently has much more freedom to go to school or a restaurant or a doctor's visit without fear of contracting and dying from Covid than someone in the US.  Not a bad trade off.

[HokieHWT 593]

1 minute ago, cu155 said:

Interesting that you bring up Hong Kong, which leads to a discussion of China and its response to the virus.  A country with more than 1 billion people that has effectively contained the virus despite early missteps, in large part because a combination of public health regulations were put in place.  People can argue about 'freedom' all they want but the reality is that someone in China currently has much more freedom to go to school or a restaurant or a doctor's visit without fear of contracting and dying from Covid than someone in the US.  Not a bad trade off.

Yeah and if you have CoVID over there they just kill you, rather than quarantine you. Very effective in controlling the numbers of infected.

[ugarte 526]

1 hour ago, HokieHWT said:

Since I don’t know how to put up a poll, I’ll ask this, feel free to respond:

Do any of you currently work in, or have a degree in any of the following fields:

public health, virology, biostatistics, genetics, epidemiology, molecular biology, medicine?

 

No but that's why i mostly focus on law and the parts of the "debate" on what CDC and various health departments say in their public statements. 

Such as "Alito is insane and unprincipled" and "the reason the Michigan Supreme Court ruled against Whitmer is because she is a Democratic Governor with a Republican Supreme Court."

[cu155 32]

6 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

Yeah and if you have CoVID over there they just kill you, rather than quarantine you. Very effective in controlling the numbers of infected.

I'm assuming this is a joke?  

[HokieHWT 593]

Just now, cu155 said:

I'm assuming this is a joke?  

Well you know how great China’s government is, so obviously it must of been meant in jest. 
 

I’m not getting into a pissing contest with anyone over politics, public health, or foreign governments killing their own citizens to meet their agendas. So no need to quote me and hit me with “well, ackually ...”

[cu155 32]

1 minute ago, HokieHWT said:

Well you know how great China’s government is, so obviously it must of been meant in jest. 
 

I’m not getting into a pissing contest with anyone over politics, public health, or foreign governments killing their own citizens to meet their agendas. So no need to quote me and hit me with “well, ackually ...”

It's an incredibly ignorant comment.  I'll leave it at that.

[HokieHWT 593]

4 minutes ago, cu155 said:

It's an incredibly ignorant comment.  I'll leave it at that.

Google Chinese government killing its own citizens. 35,000,000+ since 1949. Recently, outspoken business men, scientists, doctors, researchers, have VANISHED for speaking out. The guy who tried to warn the government about COVID, two weeks before the initial outbreak was put into prison where he died from COVID.

I know it’s scary world out there kid, but step out of your bubble and check out reality. This world sucks.

Edited November 18, 2020 by HokieHWT

[TBar1977 4,608]

1 hour ago, klehner said:

I agree about the "enforceable" bit, but that seems to me to be a difference without distinction.  All epidemiologists and virologists and other informed health experts (I'm not talking about Scott Atlas here) agree on what we should do as far as mask wearing:  does it take a law for common sense to prevail?

Do you trust others to not do things that directly cause risk to others?  I certainly don't:  just look around.

There is no way you can prove such an absurd statement. 

[HokieHWT 593]

Just now, TBar1977 said:

There is no way you can prove such an absurd statement. 

They could if they were actually allowed to speak out on the subject but are silenced by contracts, NDAs, threatened with lawsuits, etc. if they do.

Can’t tell you how I know, but I know.

[TBar1977 4,608]

17 minutes ago, cu155 said:

Interesting that you bring up Hong Kong, which leads to a discussion of China and its response to the virus.  A country with more than 1 billion people that has effectively contained the virus despite early missteps, in large part because a combination of public health regulations were put in place.  People can argue about 'freedom' all they want but the reality is that someone in China currently has much more freedom to go to school or a restaurant or a doctor's visit without fear of contracting and dying from Covid than someone in the US.  Not a bad trade off.

And you trust China because why? What evidence exists they are truthful with the outside world about literally anything? 

Btw, they literally welded doors shut to suppress people. That would never fly here. 

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1703503427818

https://www.the-sun.com/news/378365/coronavirus-patients-welded-into-homes-in-china-as-death-toll-spirals-to-813/

And this too ...

The communist system, with its tight control of information and its accountability of officials only to their bureaucratic superiors, not to the people below, has been undermining social trust for decades. Citizens do not expect a volte-face in trust just because a deadly virus appears. But without trust, people’s immune system against lies breaks down.In the public sphere, all belief becomes ungrounded belief.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/08/china-ill-not-only-coronavirus-communist-party-control

[TBar1977 4,608]

Del

Edited November 18, 2020 by TBar1977

[TBar1977 4,608]

7 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

They could if they were actually allowed to speak out on the subject but are silenced by contracts, NDAs, threatened with lawsuits, etc. if they do.

Can’t tell you how I know, but I know.

I disagree. I do so because I have heard THEM disagree on various aspects of mask wearing.