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Taylor vs. Burroughs: Who ya got?

Taylor vs. Burroughs: Who Ya Got?  

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  1. 1. The match was offered publicly. It was accepted publicly. Wrestling fans, who do you have?

    • Burroughs: Legends never die, and psychological advantages matter.
    • Taylor: We have weight classes for a reason, idiot.

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  • Poll closed on 12/04/2020 at 10:22 AM

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52 minutes ago, IronChef said:

 

I don't think there is any chance Burroughs is considering 86kg for the Olympics. I think he stays at 74 through the Olympics, moves to PA as planned, then spends a year or two at 79kg before retiring from competition to be a coach at the Penn RTC. 

Just for fun sake. Let’s say that’s the path. He wins gold in Tokyo, then wins one at 79. Where does that stack up in peoples minds vs John Smith?

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55 minutes ago, IronChef said:

 

I don't think there is any chance Burroughs is considering 86kg for the Olympics. I think he stays at 74 through the Olympics, moves to PA as planned, then spends a year or two at 79kg before retiring from competition to be a coach at the Penn RTC. 

It is not for nothing he is doing this at this time.  That being said, I don't know his motivation so I can't provide a source.  I can see your scenario as well.

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58 minutes ago, IronChef said:

 

I don't think there is any chance Burroughs is considering 86kg for the Olympics. I think he stays at 74 through the Olympics, moves to PA as planned, then spends a year or two at 79kg before retiring from competition to be a coach at the Penn RTC. 

Didn't he say he wanted to train for 2024 while at Penn?

IMO seems like he's thinking about moving up to 86 for 2024.  Which would give him 3 years to bulk up.

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Just for fun sake. Let’s say that’s the path. He wins gold in Tokyo, then wins one at 79. Where does that stack up in peoples minds vs John Smith?

You'd have to put him above John Smith under those circumstances. Whats the counter argument? Smith put a streak together? Won it in College? Smith didn't have the financial support? Those aren't bad arguments either.

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37 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

You'd have to put him above John Smith under those circumstances. Whats the counter argument? Smith put a streak together? Won it in College? Smith didn't have the financial support? Those aren't bad arguments either.

There’s a lot of good arguments both sides. For me the landscape in JB’s time compared to pre-93 is a big factor. A win in Tokyo puts him at the top for me, hands down. 

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5 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Your question got me thinking about another question.

I picked Taylor, but I am not surprised roughly 20% picked Burroughs. Some of that comes down to popularity, or who you have supported historically, or who you have hated, etc. Not all considerations are rational. Las Vegas does a great job of recognizing this. For prop bets like who will win this year's World Series they always understate the odds for teams like the Cubs because they know there is always an irrational, emotional core that will take the bet no matter the odds.

So my question is, pretend that you are the guy charged with setting the betting line in Vegas for this match. What would you make the line? Taylor minus how much? What would your over/under be for each guy's score and for the total score?

Off-the-cuff I would go something like:

Taylor -200, 

Over/Under Taylor +6, 

Taylor Score O/U: 12

Burrough Score O/U: 6

Total Score O/U: 12

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51 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

You'd have to put him above John Smith under those circumstances. Whats the counter argument? Smith put a streak together? Won it in College? Smith didn't have the financial support? Those aren't bad arguments either.

If he wins Toyko, I would assume that road goes through at least two of: Dake, Chamizo, and Sidakov.  I would have to put him ahead of John Smith if he pulls that off.

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Just now, GoNotQuietly said:

If he wins Toyko, I would assume that road goes through at least two of: Dake, Chamizo, and Sidakov.  I would have to put him ahead of John Smith if he pulls that off.

I don't know if I disagree, but you are showing some "time prejudice".

In 30 years at least 2/3 Dake CHamizo Sidakov are forgotten to the general fan, Smith Beat Sergei Belaglazov, who had more titles than all those guys combined. 

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6 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I don't know if I disagree, but you are showing some "time prejudice".

In 30 years at least 2/3 Dake CHamizo Sidakov are forgotten to the general fan, Smith Beat Sergei Belaglazov, who had more titles than all those guys combined. 

He beat Sergei Belaglozov in a friendly after Belaglosov was retired and Sergie went up a weight, right?  That is a lot different than beating multiple World Champs who have taken matches from you to win an Olympic title in your 30s.

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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1 minute ago, GoNotQuietly said:

He beat Sergei Belaglozov in a friendly after he was retired and went up a weight, right?  That is a lot different then beating multiple World Champs who have taken matches from you to win an Olympic title in your 30s.

Exactly exhibition match. If Burroughs wins the olympics he is hands down the best from the US ever. Russia is obviously far and away the best country and now a days every other match is a former Russia. In 89 Smith beat Canadian Bohay in the finals who never placed before or after and the East German placed 3rd. Not to mention there were 10 weights at that time. And let’s not forget Smith did lose a match at worlds. JB has a very good argument to already be considered the best ever.  

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5 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

He beat Sergei Belaglozov in a friendly after Belaglosov was retired and Sergie went up a weight, right?  That is a lot different than beating multiple World Champs who have taken matches from you to win an Olympic title in your 30s.

For sure, but Belaglazov wasn't long retired (match was in 1989, B won olympics in 88). Additionally I would say an 8 time world champ (sat out 84 olympics), is a tier above the other guys in the conversation, but going the right weight is important. 

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1 minute ago, AnklePicker said:

Exactly exhibition match. If Burroughs wins the olympics he is hands down the best from the US ever. Russia is obviously far and away the best country and now a days every other match is a former Russia. In 89 Smith beat Canadian Bohay in the finals who never placed before or after and the East German placed 3rd. Not to mention there were 10 weights at that time. And let’s not forget Smith did lose a match at worlds. JB has a very good argument to already be considered the best ever.  

Were the canadians and the east germans mentioned former USSR? I have no idea but that door swings both ways. 

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Genuinely asking: who did John Smith beat in sanctioned international competition who was better than Tsargush(3xWC), Tsabolov(WC) and Chamizo (2xWC)?

The only one who comes to mind is Randy LEWIS

If he beats Dake (2xWC) to make the team, and then Sidakov (2xWC) to win the Olympics, then he is past John Smith, imho.

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Were the canadians and the east germans mentioned former USSR? I have no idea but that door swings both ways. 

Bohay was born in Canada the East German was born in Germany. Swings both ways?  Uzbekistan, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, can all have their own reps  now when before they’d all have to fight to represent the USSR. Smith had to beat one of those guys. Burroughs seems to have one every round aside from the Iranians. And now you have Russians representing Hungary and many other European countries. And 6 weights for the Olympics as compared to 10 is not even close. Way, way more difficult to win with 6 weights. 

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Burroughs golds:

2011: Iran 2nd, Azerbaijan/Georgia 3rd

2012: Iran 2nd, Russia/ Hungary 3rd

2013: Iran 2nd, Belarus/ Uzbekistan 3rd

2015: Mongolia 2nd, Russia/India 3rd

2017: Russia 2nd, Belarus/ Turkey 3rd

So of the 15 other placers during JB’s world titles 8 would have been from former Soviet states.  And he seemingly has gone through Russia’s rep every time he’s won it, with Tsargush in 2011 not even placing.  

 

 

 

 

 

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Didn't he say he wanted to train for 2024 while at Penn?
IMO seems like he's thinking about moving up to 86 for 2024.  Which would give him 3 years to bulk up.

He may have said that; I just don't think he is likely to hang around until age 36 to either suck down to 74 again or go up to 86kg at 5'7". He's already the oldest guy on the national team. Are there any contenders (say top 6 or so) who are older than him?

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34 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Bohay was born in Canada the East German was born in Germany. Swings both ways?  Uzbekistan, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, can all have their own reps  now when before they’d all have to fight to represent the USSR. Smith had to beat one of those guys. Burroughs seems to have one every round aside from the Iranians. And now you have Russians representing Hungary and many other European countries. And 6 weights for the Olympics as compared to 10 is not even close. Way, way more difficult to win with 6 weights. 

calm down dude i was listening. I just assumed a lot of canadian world finalists were ex-patriots. 

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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Genuinely asking: who did John Smith beat in sanctioned international competition who was better than Tsargush(3xWC), Tsabolov(WC) and Chamizo (2xWC)?

The only one who comes to mind is Randy Smith.

If he beats Dake (2xWC) to make the team, and then Sidakov (2xWC) to win the Olympics, then he is past John Smith, imho.

 

 

 

Randy Smith? Is that a country-western singer?

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1 hour ago, AnklePicker said:

Burroughs golds:

2011: Iran 2nd, Azerbaijan/Georgia 3rd

2012: Iran 2nd, Russia/ Hungary 3rd

2013: Iran 2nd, Belarus/ Uzbekistan 3rd

2015: Mongolia 2nd, Russia/India 3rd

2017: Russia 2nd, Belarus/ Turkey 3rd

So of the 15 other placers during JB’s world titles 8 would have been from former Soviet states.  And he seemingly has gone through Russia’s rep every time he’s won it, with Tsargush in 2011 not even placing.  

 

 

 

 

 

Went through and counted them up....of his 201 senior level matches, 79 former Soviets. (Granted a miscount give or take). 39%. That’s a lifetime of Russians. 

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