IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) Here are two situations from Saturday night. To me, they are strikingly similar, but the first was ruled grounded, while the second is a step out. Either the officials made a mistake, or I don't understand the rule as well as I thought. Can anyone explain why these two situations were scored differently? #1 - No points https://gfycat.com/shinyoldafricanrockpython #2 - 1 point confirmed https://gfycat.com/dangeroussleepykite Edited November 18, 2020 by IronChef Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wrestleknownothing 349 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, IronChef said: Here are two situations from Saturday night. To me, they are strikingly similar, but the first was ruled grounded, while the second is a step out. Either the officials made a mistake, or I don't understand the rule as well as I thought. Can anyone explain why these two situations were scored differently. #1 - No points https://gfycat.com/shinyoldafricanrockpython #2 - 1 point confirmed https://gfycat.com/dangeroussleepykite I would be interested in an explanation too, as I did not see any substantive difference between the two at the time, and I see even less difference with the passage of time. I remember thinking at the time that it was a miss on the first call and the second call was an acknowledgement that the first call was missed. But as my screen name implies, what do I know? Edited November 18, 2020 by Wrestleknownothing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 it is poor officiating... they allowed both JB and Valencia to wrestle off their knees (passive) entirely too much which resulted in those scenarios... they allowed it and then called the resulting action inconsistently... they damn sure didn't know what a leg foul in greco is... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gimpeltf 1,474 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 Not suggesting this as a definitive answer but the second one involved Valencia going pretty straight back and the first was circling. 1 fadzaev2 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 38 minutes ago, gimpeltf said: Not suggesting this as a definitive answer but the second one involved Valencia going pretty straight back and the first was circling. attempting to circle or not has no bearing on a step out... going straight back can be viewed as fleeing the hold and that becomes a caution and 1 and the action is restarted in whatever position the fleeing occurred... but, that was not the call... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1032004 809 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, LJB said: attempting to circle or not has no bearing on a step out... going straight back can be viewed as fleeing the hold and that becomes a caution and 1 and the action is restarted in whatever position the fleeing occurred... but, that was not the call... What should the calls for each of those 2 clips have been? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, 1032004 said: What should the calls for each of those 2 clips have been? No points, but, it is the refs fault for allowing them to wrestle on their knees... both should have been warned for that early and if they continued to drop down, they should have been hit for passivity... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow_Medal 184 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 I don’t have the data to back this up, but it seems like many refs call that 1 point more towards the end of match Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nom 796 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 Thanks for the original post on this. I’d love to have more like it. This type of video review, done by those in some position of authority, should be done more often. This way they can be more clear - across the community - on what the rules are and how to interpret them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lurker 1,382 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 In the first one ZV’s initial attack started grounded, JB’s reattack came from ground, the scrambled a little bit on the mat and went out. In the second one JB’s initial attack started from the feet and it was the continuation of the initial attack through a straight line to out of bounds. It’s a thin line but that’s the difference of the two. 1 neutralpositionref reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Lurker said: In the first one ZV’s initial attack started grounded, JB’s reattack came from ground, the scrambled a little bit on the mat and went out. In the second one JB’s initial attack started from the feet and it was the continuation of the initial attack through a straight line to out of bounds. It’s a thin line but that’s the difference of the two. it is still on a "grounded" opponent... it is no different than when we see hand fighting to the protection zone and then one wrestler dropping down while clinched to avoid giving up a step out... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 I think there's a case to be made that both situations should have been cautions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 1st absolutely not... 2nd yes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lurker 1,382 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 36 minutes ago, LJB said: it is still on a "grounded" opponent... it is no different than when we see hand fighting to the protection zone and then one wrestler dropping down while clinched to avoid giving up a step out... Not saying I think it was right or wrong call. Just saying why I thought they called it the way they did, the difference in the two scenarios. Seeing a 1 on that second scenario is not all that uncommon, when the initial attack goes in a straight line like that. That’s why you often see officials wave their hand at the ground in a circular motion when not giving the one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lurker 1,382 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 38 minutes ago, LJB said: it is still on a "grounded" opponent... it is no different than when we see hand fighting to the protection zone and then one wrestler dropping down while clinched to avoid giving up a step out... It is a difference in what you described in that they weren’t hand fighting to the zone. It was a direct attack into and through the zone. Again not saying the call(s) were right or wrong, just that the situations were different, as is the situation you described. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Lurker said: It is a difference in what you described in that they weren’t hand fighting to the zone. It was a direct attack into and through the zone. Again not saying the call(s) were right or wrong, just that the situations were different, as is the situation you described. yes, the situations were different in the way you describe... yes, that might have been why the below average ref called it like he did... it still does not make it right, which, is the real issue at play... a caution and 1 is the only legitimate way to award points in the second situation... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lurker 1,382 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 4 hours ago, LJB said: a caution and 1 is the only legitimate way to award points in the second situation... Definitely agree in that I think it’s the better way to call that action, but then again like I’ve said I’ve seen that call on that action a bit, by some pretty good refs. Guessing it’s a lesser of two evils type of thing. Honestly to me the two calls on the two actions...nothing really notable. Can see people asking why one and not the other. Can definitely see your point on the C-1 on the second sequence. Just as much, can see why they went the way they did. No biggie. And certainly wasn’t a factor in the match. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 I can’t think of any specific instance where a quality ref has called example 2 or any action similar as a step out... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lurker 1,382 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 2 hours ago, LJB said: I can’t think of any specific instance where a quality ref has called example 2 or any action similar as a step out... Then I guess they didn’t bother you that much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Lurker said: Then I guess they didn’t bother you that much. or... it just never happened... or... I just have come to accept how bad the reffing is in this country overall... and how poor the overall knowledge is on the rule set... either way... when I saw the refs for the FLO event I didn’t have much faith in an evening without “controversy”... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fadzaev2 317 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 On 11/18/2020 at 8:08 PM, LJB said: No points, but, it is the refs fault for allowing them to wrestle on their knees... both should have been warned for that early and if they continued to drop down, they should have been hit for passivity... Personally, I think JB was forced to stay that low, because Valencia was....I don't think JB really wanted to be down there.....It was addressed a little in his interview after the match. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neutralpositionref 12 Report post Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) Refs evaluate how they got to the mat. Was it an attack that got the wrestler(s) to the mat (a sprawl perhaps or a snap down) then the same attack continued / followed through and drove the wrestler out? That is more likely to be a 1 point for step out. Was it an attack that got the wrestler(s) to the mat, there was a lot of scrambling and circle action, then someone went out? That is more likely to be called grounded and no points. Edited December 2, 2020 by neutralpositionref Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
