IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Echemendia is in on the legs, Henderson attempts a crotch lift, does not get an exposure, but ends up on top. After a review, the call is 2 for Echemendia and 1 reversal for Henderson. What did Echemendia do to earn 2 points? Henderson initiated the move and subsequently ended up on top. https://gfycat.com/unsightlyornerydegus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nom 796 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Great question!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 ugh... you don't get to just expose your own back all willy nilly and expect to come out of it with no points against you... henderson does it twice before securing a turn or a takedown... i predict this thread will get more silly instead of less... 2 Mphillips and DocBZ reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billyhoyle 1,987 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 My interpretation is that Henderson's back was exposed in the scramble while Eschemendia's was not. So 2 exposure, followed by 1 for the reversal. 1 DocBZ reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mphillips 625 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 52 minutes ago, Mphillips said: Hey, I'm just trying to start some discussion about situations where the call wasn't obvious. 1 Mphillips reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wrestleknownothing 349 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 After reading many opinions on the rules, I decided to look at the rules. https://www.usawmembership.com/usa_wrestling_rule_book It appears to me that the relevant passage in the 2 point category is: To the defensive wrestler who is able to effectively counter an offensive action and hold the offensive wrestler in a position of danger. Video In that clause "hold the offensive wrestler" and "position of danger" are pretty important criteria. I would not call what Echemendia did holding Henderson in a position (certainly up for debate, but in the slow mo version Henderson's back is only exposed for 1 second of the video). And the definition of danger in the rules is: DANGER: refers to the position of the defensive wrestler when their back is exposed less than 90 degrees to the mat, while simultaneously contacting his or her head, shoulder or elbow with the mat. When a defensive wrestler has his or her back exposed towards the mat, his or her head, shoulder, or elbow must be in contact with the mat to be considered to be in a “danger” position. Video Looking at the Flo video behind their paywall, as Henderson exposes his back neither his head, elbow or shoulder are touching the mat. By the time his shoulder does touch his back is at 90 degrees, so combined I just don't see Echemendia correctly getting 2 there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 55 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said: My interpretation is that Henderson's back was exposed in the scramble while Eschemendia's was not. So 2 exposure, followed by 1 for the reversal. I'm just questioning why Echemendia gets points for essentially doing nothing and then getting taken down. For Echemendia to score, he has to actually do something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, LJB said: ugh... you don't get to just expose your own back all willy nilly and expect to come out of it with no points against you... henderson does it twice before securing a turn or a takedown... i predict this thread will get more silly instead of less... You write with so much certainty about these things, even though you're not any kind of expert. There are three officials because the rules are open for interpretation. When you come stumbling in with your ironclad pronouncements, there's no reason to treat you as an authority on anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, IronChef said: You write with so much certainty about these things, even though you're not any kind of expert. There are three officials because the rules are open for interpretation. When you come stumbling in with your ironclad pronouncements, there's no reason to treat you as an authority on anything. you and your bruised ego... it really is an amusement to me... regardless... i understand enough about the rules for my states head official to beg for me months to start reffing... then after reffing the 2019 state tourney (my third) he signed me up for regionals without even asking... then assigning me juniors greco and free at that regional... then i was upgraded to M2 after that tourney (my 4th) and asked to go ref fargo (i could not)... so, to the people that actualy matter (i.e.- not bbs children with too high opinions of themselves), yes, i actually do have very good understanding about these things... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gimpeltf 1,474 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 What happened right before this? Is it possible they gave a takedown going into this situation? Then it would be a reversal. Also could be what @BillyHoyle said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronChef 714 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 1 minute ago, gimpeltf said: What happened right before this? Is it possible they gave a takedown going into this situation? Then it would be a reversal. Also could be what @BillyHoyle said. Nothing was awarded in real time prior to this. If a takedown was awarded to Echemendia earlier, it would have come during the review, so we can't say for certain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gimpeltf 1,474 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Here's the transcript. You have to take times in freestyle with a grain of salt since they don't represent when the scores happened but when the chair rules on the calls. I note that the 2 was scored roughly when the ref scored 2 the other way but then each guy scored a 1 both at 1:44. I'm assuming a review happened which might have made the times completely moot (at least the 1 and 1) So after looking a few more times- 2 on the crotch throw then a 1 point exposure red followed by the reversal. Not sure I agree but ... Bout 6 - FLO Mat 1 EVAN HENDERSON WINS BY VPO1 8-3 WATCH REPLAY Evan Henderson New York 8 Anthony Echemendia Ohio 3 PERIOD 1 2:41 2 1:20 1 PERIOD 2 2 1:50 1:44 1 1 1:44 0:28 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 there is no such thing as a 1pt exposure... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gimpeltf 1,474 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, LJB said: there is no such thing as a 1pt exposure... Right (I did say I wasn't sure I agreed!)- Could that have been a reversal then? Followed by the more obvious reversal? Or is that last 1 from a review? Although I can't tell what was finally called before the review. I only see the ref calling 2 red. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJB 1,453 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Just now, gimpeltf said: Right (I did say I wasn't sure I agreed!)- Could that have been a reversal then? Followed by the more obvious reversal? Or is that last 1 from a review? Although I can't tell what was finally called before the review. I only see the ref calling 2 red. it was a failed challenge by henderson's corner after the intial challenge by echemendia's corner... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gimpeltf 1,474 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Just now, LJB said: it was a failed challenge by henderson's corner after the intial challenge by echemendia's corner... I guess I should have asked first- what happened AFTER rather than before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nom 796 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 (edited) I take the following as a similar situations ... wrestler attempts a gut, lace, crotch lift ... super clear that they are attempting the move. In each situation the offensive wrestler exposes their own back but due to the efforts of their opponent (who does not want to go over in a way that exposes their own back), the opponent’s back is not exposed. I would not expect 2 points to be awarded to the defensive wrestler if the back exposure was part of the offensive wrestler’s move and it occurred during the execution of the move. Very easy to picture with a gut and a lace. Tons of guys expose their own back and it doesn’t work out. No points awarded unless the other wrestler does something the get them stuck there for a moment. (Now, define stuck there). Edited November 20, 2020 by nom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nom 796 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 In this situation I can see someone arguing that Echemendia executed a move once his legs were lifted ... he forcefully brought his leg down on Henderson’s head and knocked him backward. Was not Henderson’s preferred move at that point. Although - a failed gut or lace is the result of a wrestler preventing it from happening and is also not the preferred move either. Curios on thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gimpeltf 1,474 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 Well, there are two different possible discussions. What was it? What should it have been? It seemed we were mainly discussing what was called so that's where I tried to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1032004 809 Report post Posted November 21, 2020 16 hours ago, LJB said: ugh... you don't get to just expose your own back all willy nilly and expect to come out of it with no points against you... henderson does it twice before securing a turn or a takedown... i predict this thread will get more silly instead of less... So do you think Echemendia could have gotten 4 there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrestlingphish 639 Report post Posted November 21, 2020 On 11/20/2020 at 1:10 PM, LJB said: you and your bruised ego... it really is an amusement to me... regardless... i understand enough about the rules for my states head official to beg for me months to start reffing... then after reffing the 2019 state tourney (my third) he signed me up for regionals without even asking... then assigning me juniors greco and free at that regional... then i was upgraded to M2 after that tourney (my 4th) and asked to go ref fargo (i could not)... so, to the people that actualy matter (i.e.- not bbs children with too high opinions of themselves), yes, i actually do have very good understanding about these things... This is one of the lamest posts I have ever seen on here. Cool story, bro. 1 IronChef reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
