Jump to content
IronChef

Henderson vs Echemendia Situation

Recommended Posts

ugh...

you don't get to just expose your own back all willy nilly and expect to come out of it with no points against you...

henderson does it twice before securing a turn or a takedown...

i predict this thread will get more silly instead of less...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading many opinions on the rules, I decided to look at the rules.

https://www.usawmembership.com/usa_wrestling_rule_book

It appears to me that the relevant passage in the 2 point category is:

  • To the defensive wrestler who is able to effectively counter an offensive action and hold the offensive wrestler in a position of danger.  Video

In that clause "hold the offensive wrestler" and "position of danger" are pretty important criteria. I would not call what Echemendia did holding Henderson in a position (certainly up for debate, but in the slow mo version Henderson's back is only exposed for 1 second of the video).

And the definition of danger in the rules is:

  • DANGER: refers to the position of the defensive wrestler when their back is exposed less than 90 degrees to the mat, while simultaneously contacting his or her head, shoulder or elbow with the mat.  When a defensive wrestler has his or her back exposed towards the mat, his or her head, shoulder, or elbow must be in contact with the mat to be considered to be in a “danger” position.   Video

Looking at the Flo video behind their paywall, as Henderson exposes his back neither his head, elbow or shoulder are touching the mat. By the time his shoulder does touch his back is at 90 degrees, so combined I just don't see Echemendia correctly getting 2 there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

My interpretation is that Henderson's back was exposed in the scramble while Eschemendia's was not.  So 2 exposure, followed by 1 for the reversal.  

I'm just questioning why Echemendia gets points for essentially doing nothing and then getting taken down. For Echemendia to score, he has to actually do something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LJB said:

ugh...

you don't get to just expose your own back all willy nilly and expect to come out of it with no points against you...

henderson does it twice before securing a turn or a takedown...

i predict this thread will get more silly instead of less...

 

You write with so much certainty about these things, even though you're not any kind of expert. There are three officials because the rules are open for interpretation. When you come stumbling in with your ironclad pronouncements, there's no reason to treat you as an authority on anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, IronChef said:

You write with so much certainty about these things, even though you're not any kind of expert. There are three officials because the rules are open for interpretation. When you come stumbling in with your ironclad pronouncements, there's no reason to treat you as an authority on anything.

you and your bruised ego...

it really is an amusement to me...

regardless...

i understand enough about the rules for my states head official to beg for me months to start reffing... then after reffing the 2019 state tourney (my third) he signed me up for regionals without even asking... then assigning me juniors greco and free at that regional... then i was upgraded to M2 after that tourney (my 4th) and asked to go ref fargo (i could not)...

so, to the people that actualy matter (i.e.- not bbs children with too high opinions of themselves), yes, i actually do have very good understanding about these things...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

What happened right before this? Is it possible they gave a takedown going into this situation? Then it would be a reversal. Also could be what @BillyHoyle said.

Nothing was awarded in real time prior to this. If a takedown was awarded to Echemendia earlier, it would have come during the review, so we can't say for certain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the transcript. You have to take times in freestyle with a grain of salt since they don't represent when the scores happened but when the chair rules on the calls. I note that the 2 was scored roughly when the ref scored 2 the other way but then each guy scored a 1 both at 1:44. I'm assuming a review happened which might have made the times completely moot (at least the 1 and 1)

So after looking a few more times- 2 on the crotch throw then a 1 point exposure red followed by the reversal.

Not sure I agree but ...

Bout 6 - FLO
Mat 1
EVAN HENDERSON WINS BY VPO1 8-3
 
Evan
Henderson
New York
8
 
Anthony
Echemendia
Ohio
3
    PERIOD 1    
2:41   2      
1:20   1      
    PERIOD 2    
      2   1:50
1:44   1      
      1   1:44
0:28   4    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, LJB said:

there is no such thing as a 1pt exposure...

Right (I did say I wasn't sure I agreed!)- Could that have been a reversal then? Followed by the more obvious reversal? Or is that last 1 from a review? Although I can't tell what was finally called before the review. I only see the ref calling 2 red.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, gimpeltf said:

Right (I did say I wasn't sure I agreed!)- Could that have been a reversal then? Followed by the more obvious reversal? Or is that last 1 from a review? Although I can't tell what was finally called before the review. I only see the ref calling 2 red.

it was a failed challenge by henderson's corner after the intial challenge by echemendia's corner...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I take the following as a similar situations ... wrestler attempts a gut, lace, crotch lift ... super clear that they are attempting the move.  In each situation the offensive wrestler exposes their own back but due to the efforts of their opponent (who does not want to go over in a way that exposes their own back), the opponent’s back is not exposed.

I would not expect 2 points to be awarded to the defensive wrestler if the back exposure was part of the offensive wrestler’s move and it occurred during the execution of the move.

Very easy to picture with a gut and a lace.  Tons of guys expose their own back and it doesn’t work out.  No points awarded unless the other wrestler does something the get them stuck there for a moment.  (Now, define stuck there).

Edited by nom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this situation I can see someone arguing that Echemendia executed a move once his legs were lifted ... he forcefully brought his leg down on Henderson’s head and knocked him backward. Was not Henderson’s preferred move at that point.

Although - a failed gut or lace is the result of a wrestler preventing it from happening and is also not the preferred move either.  

Curios on thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, LJB said:

ugh...

you don't get to just expose your own back all willy nilly and expect to come out of it with no points against you...

henderson does it twice before securing a turn or a takedown...

i predict this thread will get more silly instead of less...

 

So do you think Echemendia could have gotten 4 there?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/20/2020 at 1:10 PM, LJB said:

you and your bruised ego...

it really is an amusement to me...

regardless...

i understand enough about the rules for my states head official to beg for me months to start reffing... then after reffing the 2019 state tourney (my third) he signed me up for regionals without even asking... then assigning me juniors greco and free at that regional... then i was upgraded to M2 after that tourney (my 4th) and asked to go ref fargo (i could not)...

so, to the people that actualy matter (i.e.- not bbs children with too high opinions of themselves), yes, i actually do have very good understanding about these things...

This is one of the lamest posts I have ever seen on here. Cool story, bro.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...