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Goodbye Non-Revenue Sports

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To the rest of the world, it makes no sense that our schools are in the sports business.  We are pretty much the only nation on the planet that does so.  I LOVE high school and college sports, but maybe, for the sake of discussion, it is time to consider a separation.  Maybe...and I stress MAYBE...it would be better for both youth sports and schools to go in different directions.  Thoughts?

Edited by matts1w

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1 hour ago, matts1w said:

To the rest of the world, it makes no sense that our schools are in the sports business.  We are pretty much the only nation on the planet that does so.  I LOVE high school and college sports, but maybe, for the sake of discussion, it is time to consider a separation.  Maybe...and I stress MAYBE...it would be better for both youth sports and schools to go in different directions.  Thoughts?

Yeah, and how will that look? Funding and such. For Amateur sports. 

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1 hour ago, matts1w said:

To the rest of the world, it makes no sense that our schools are in the sports business.  We are pretty much the only nation on the planet that does so.  I LOVE high school and college sports, but maybe, for the sake of discussion, it is time to consider a separation.  Maybe...and I stress MAYBE...it would be better for both youth sports and schools to go in different directions.  Thoughts?

AS a taxpayer, I do not think eliminating extracurriculars at the high school level makes sense.

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3 hours ago, matts1w said:

To the rest of the world, it makes no sense that our schools are in the sports business.  We are pretty much the only nation on the planet that does so.  I LOVE high school and college sports, but maybe, for the sake of discussion, it is time to consider a separation.  Maybe...and I stress MAYBE...it would be better for both youth sports and schools to go in different directions.  Thoughts?

The problem with the club model that European and other countries follow is that it leaves out kids who are average or who's family cannot afford the club fees. If the goal is to nurture the best athletes, the club model is best. If the goal is to offer opportunity to the greatest number of participants, the US school-based system is best.

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I think many fully support college athletics ... just in a more modest approach.  Coaches need not get paid more than a professor.  The facilities need not be gold star.  Bring it back to the idea of an extra curricular activity that provides many benefits to a young person's development while they pursue a degree that will support a career in a choosen field.  

No need to have athletics distort the academic mission of the 'non-profit' universities.  And the kind of money involved in football naturally does distort things.  

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The school district my children attended is one of the largest in CO and sponsors no sports until HS.  HS sports are nice, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they did away with varsity sports altogether.

D1 needs to implement austerity measures or they are going there and not coming back. 

 

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9 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

What exactly are the issues the commission has with the current NCAA model?  Is it all about the money as usual?

Yup.  And of course they also “recommended” not paying the players.

If they make so much money that they need to be separated from the NCAA, then the players should be getting paid.

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11 hours ago, AHamilton said:

AS a taxpayer, I do not think eliminating extracurriculars at the high school level makes sense.

I agree with you but in my area, it is not uncommon to see a JH/HS wrestling budget exceed $20,000 a year when you factor in all expenses like coach/trainer salaries, table workers for home matches, officials, uniforms, mats, travel expenses.  But that same wrestling program at best brings in only 10K a year so taxpayer money is being used to support the program.

In PA, it also isn't common to see a teacher just a few years from retirement take up some menial assistant coaching position from a more obscure sport because they take those last few years of coaching salary into their retirement (which is being paid for by taxpayers for maybe the next 30+ years).

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14 hours ago, matts1w said:

To the rest of the world, it makes no sense that our schools are in the sports business.  We are pretty much the only nation on the planet that does so.  I LOVE high school and college sports, but maybe, for the sake of discussion, it is time to consider a separation.  Maybe...and I stress MAYBE...it would be better for both youth sports and schools to go in different directions.  Thoughts?

If youth sports are eliminated from schools this would be a huge detriment to at-risk disadvantaged kids. Clubs would become even more elitist than they are now (in general). That kid who stays in school because of sports.... stays out of trouble because of a coach/mentor....gets to a JC because of a caring sports community... will no longer exist. This in my opinion could be the worst decision ever made. 

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I see this discussion being boiled down to "the goal" of athletics. If you see the goal of athletics to be an extension of the classroom and a way to promote some level of esprite de corps for a community or school, then sports should remain as is. But if sports at any level is to be a breeding ground for the next level up, then moving the model would make sense. And I'm not sure both at the same time are sustainable. 

Also, if you think our sports model and way of working looks anything like it did 30 to 50 years ago, then I'm not sure you're being honest with the current state of affairs.

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13 minutes ago, Idaho said:

If youth sports are eliminated from schools this would be a huge detriment to at-risk disadvantaged kids. Clubs would become even more elitist than they are now (in general). That kid who stays in school because of sports.... stays out of trouble because of a coach/mentor....gets to a JC because of a caring sports community... will no longer exist. This in my opinion could be the worst decision ever made. 

We aren't the only country with at-risk kids. I'm not trying to discredit anything you said- I indirectly worked a bit with Beat The Streets-NYC (a friend was one of the founders). Any ideas about how this plays out in other countries? 

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just a question

how many kids go to college b/c of sports? IE would'nt have the opportunity without sports? b/c of cost or other...

i know 3 adults who wouldn't have gone to college if not to play. they weren't great students. 2 didn't have the money either.

they have degrees and are very successful people.

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11 hours ago, nom said:

I think many fully support college athletics ... just in a more modest approach.  Coaches need not get paid more than a professor.  The facilities need not be gold star.  Bring it back to the idea of an extra curricular activity that provides many benefits to a young person's development while they pursue a degree that will support a career in a choosen field.  

No need to have athletics distort the academic mission of the 'non-profit' universities.  And the kind of money involved in football naturally does distort things.  

Of course you're right, but try telling Alabama or Clemson to get rid of their multi-million dollar revenue generating football programs.

You'd think the more successful schools become with their football programs, they'd be more likely to add sports. In fact, the more successful the football program, the more likely they are to drop wrestling.

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12 hours ago, nom said:

I think many fully support college athletics ... just in a more modest approach.  Coaches need not get paid more than a professor.  The facilities need not be gold star.  Bring it back to the idea of an extra curricular activity that provides many benefits to a young person's development while they pursue a degree that will support a career in a choosen field.  

No need to have athletics distort the academic mission of the 'non-profit' universities.  And the kind of money involved in football naturally does distort things.  

Head football coach should not be paid more than any of the school's deans (Provost, VPs etc), The O+D football coordinators, and The M+W head B-Ball coaches should not earn more than the highest paid department head. Other head coaches, no more than a Full professor.  

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I understand that Finland is often rated as having the best "K-12" education in the world. I really don't know much about how it works, but I gather the school day is typically 9-10 hours. It includes pretty much anything we would consider a typical youth activity, such as scouting. So I would presume it includes sports. Finland and Norway are the two most successful, per capita, Olympic programs. Admittedly, I do not have info in any detail. I will note, The 2017 Film, the Square, Indicates competitive school age Cheerleading is an event in Sweden.

To me, School related Sports make a lot of sense in non-densely populated nations, much of the USA, but more so Canada and Scandinavia, except Demark. 

 

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12 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

The school district my children attended is one of the largest in CO and sponsors no sports until HS.  HS sports are nice, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they did away with varsity sports altogether.

D1 needs to implement austerity measures or they are going there and not coming back. 

 

I would argue that sports are essential to physical and mental health and cannot be separated out from academic development without adverse consequences. The countries that separate sports from school have it wrong and we're doing it right.

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23 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

I would argue that sports are essential to physical and mental health and cannot be separated out from academic development without adverse consequences. The countries that separate sports from school have it wrong and we're doing it right.

That is what our great-great grandparents thought. I see the benefits.

I doubt they saw college sports morph into a business model, which not only detracts from the goal but corrupts it.

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16 hours ago, matts1w said:

To the rest of the world, it makes no sense that our schools are in the sports business.  We are pretty much the only nation on the planet that does so.  I LOVE high school and college sports, but maybe, for the sake of discussion, it is time to consider a separation.  Maybe...and I stress MAYBE...it would be better for both youth sports and schools to go in different directions.  Thoughts?

When did America decide we shouldn't be fun anymore? I know when work is over on Friday, the only thing I can think of is two good days of pragmatic behavior.

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just a question
how many kids go to college b/c of sports? IE would'nt have the opportunity without sports? b/c of cost or other...
i know 3 adults who wouldn't have gone to college if not to play. they weren't great students. 2 didn't have the money either.
they have degrees and are very successful people.

Absolutely correct. I wrestled JUCO and I can think of at least 3 of my teammates who made that exact statement; that they wouldn’t be in school if not for wrestling. They each went on to get a 4 year degree and have been successful in their personal and professional lives ever since. There are certainly other educational and athletic models that work, but the point you bring up cannot be overlooked.

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I've always thought:

1) High school sports should be about participation
2) College sports should be about competition
3) Professional sports, including the Olympics, should be most simply about winning

I would hope the coming correction in college sports does not impact the high schools, where the mission of sports should be very different. 

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I don't think this is that big of a problem for Olympic sports. The schools will still be in the NCAA, the NCAA just won't regulate FBS football in the same way. The NCAA will still regulate every other sport and will have minimum sponsorship requirements.

Matt Brown writes a paid newsletter about college sports. This was his quick take: https://mythreadreader.com/MattBrownEP/1334574062488707072

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1 hour ago, Voice_of_the_Quakers said:

I've always thought:

1) High school sports should be about participation
2) College sports should be about competition
3) Professional sports, including the Olympics, should be most simply about winning

I would hope the coming correction in college sports does not impact the high schools, where the mission of sports should be very different. 

Add 0) youth and Middle school sports are about learning (about life, not just the particular sport)

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