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Goodbye Non-Revenue Sports

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I support fun, movement, exercise, healthy competition and striving for excellence.  I support sports.  They have a great role to play in the upbringing of our youth, the health of our adults, and the morale of our society.  Being associated with schools is great.  
 

The path we have experienced is natural in such a rich and entertainment crazy society.  Sports is entertainment for 95% + of people out there.  They are willing to pay money to see it.  And...  it keeps alumni interest in their colleges (donations), attracts attention from prospective students, and helps drive espirit de corps on campus.   The feedback loop is strong ... and the fuel is money.  Money money.  Only natural for those pulling ahead to invest more to build on the strong ROI.  

This leads to distortions in priorities, missions, equity, and policy.  I wish those folks trying to fix those distortions great luck.  Going to be hard!!!

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On 12/3/2020 at 10:23 PM, nom said:

I think many fully support college athletics ... just in a more modest approach.  Coaches need not get paid more than a professor.  The facilities need not be gold star.  Bring it back to the idea of an extra curricular activity that provides many benefits to a young person's development while they pursue a degree that will support a career in a choosen field.  

No need to have athletics distort the academic mission of the 'non-profit' universities.  And the kind of money involved in football naturally does distort things.  

Sounds nice, theoretically.

Unfortunately the cat never goes back into the bag.

Can’t unilaterally decrease all coaches pay. Have to upkeep existing multimillion dollar facilities. Even if there was a way to stop further expansion, all of those with existing facilities would be at a much more advantageous recruiting position.

 

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I think the educational advantages of athletics are overrated. 

I don't understand why you post here. I'm not being sarcastic or mean. You just seem like you don't really like wrestling. You've made multiple posts like this over the years, including your opposition to wrestlers taking extra college seasons if they are allowed. Do you watch wrestling regularly? Are you a fan of any athlete or team?

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Agreed ironchef.  Not to mention data shows students who excel academically often participate in organized sports.  It’s proven that it helps with time management, leadership abilities, problem solving, etc.  

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Just some info. 60 minutes Sun Dec 6.2020. Middle segment on the whacking of non revenue, nothing other than an image or two on wrestling. focused Minn M Gymnastic. Interesting than the sport in the 70s ad 150 (all levels I think teams, and are down to 13. (I think many of us new that number was in the teens)

? do Ice Hockey and wrestling out draw BktBall at Minn. I think PSU Wrest and Hockey outdraw the real people at bball. Of course back in the 70s when Minn Gymn coach was at PSU, Ice Hockey wasn't varsity But Wrestling and Gymn outdrew BBall 

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Penn State basketball outdrew wrestling in 2019 and 2020. Wrestling was ahead in 2016, 2017, and 2018. I didn’t check prior to that. Penn State has been pretty solidly around 7,600-7,800 average per match since they started doing one per year at BJC. I suspect they could beat basketball most years if they wrestled every match in the larger BJC since they have sold out Rec Hall over 50 times in a row.

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8 hours ago, IronChef said:

Penn State basketball outdrew wrestling in 2019 and 2020. Wrestling was ahead in 2016, 2017, and 2018. I didn’t check prior to that. Penn State has been pretty solidly around 7,600-7,800 average per match since they started doing one per year at BJC. I suspect they could beat basketball most years if they wrestled every match in the larger BJC since they have sold out Rec Hall over 50 times in a row.

When I see a PSU game, The lower Bowl of BJC is rarely half filled. Much less the upper bowl. Thousands of season tickets are sold because it guarantees priority for football tickets. I suspect that Rec Hall wrestling meets are 90-99% full, unless inclement weather. I know they had a good team last year, unfortunately, there website is not amenable to looking into the past

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For the kids who only go to college to continue playing their sport, decades ago those same kids usually went into the military and the military is having a hard time recruiting physically qualified kids right now.

We are sending way too many kids to college right now and less investment into our universities and more funding for HS and post HS trade schools are needed.

Western Europe has no school sports and it doesn't hurt them.  In fact, Europe is far more educated than we are, whether it is a college degree or a trade/skill.

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2 hours ago, Boompa said:

We are sending way too many kids to college right now and less investment into our universities and more funding for HS and post HS trade schools are needed.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The kids who really have trouble are the ones who don't go to college OR trade school as well as those who start college and drop out/fail out. More completed education is never bad. I don't think there are a lot of kid who graduated from college and it was a mistake for them to attend. There are definitely kids out there who went to college, didn't make it, and should have probably gone to trade school instead. 

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On 12/4/2020 at 9:44 AM, GockeS said:

just a question

how many kids go to college b/c of sports? IE would'nt have the opportunity without sports? b/c of cost or other...

i know 3 adults who wouldn't have gone to college if not to play. they weren't great students. 2 didn't have the money either.

they have degrees and are very successful people.

TBH, I would not have gone to college if it weren’t for sports and my academic scholarship. I hated school and only attended so I could play football, wrestle, and throw a shot put and discus. I would have followed my brother and father and joined the military. I often wish I had.

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4 hours ago, IronChef said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. The kids who really have trouble are the ones who don't go to college OR trade school as well as those who start college and drop out/fail out. More completed education is never bad. I don't think there are a lot of kid who graduated from college and it was a mistake for them to attend. There are definitely kids out there who went to college, didn't make it, and should have probably gone to trade school instead. 

I think it depends on how you're valuing the college experience. The student loan crisis as a starting point would be indicative of a lack of real world value being derived from the college experience. Though one could also argue that there are social benefits. Frankly, I'd be 100% in favor of providing a brief business-based curriculum (taxes, accounting, sales) and then encouraging kids to learn a trade.

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21 hours ago, Boompa said:

.  In fact, Europe is far more educated than we are, whether it is a college degree or a trade/skill.

quite a claim, love to see some data on that.

also, hard to compare apples to oranges. they track kids there.

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14 hours ago, Janderson133 said:

 The student loan crisis as a starting point would be indicative of a lack of real world value being derived from the college experience. 

the student loan crisis is in part due to a degree in something that doesn't pay, translate etc... 

think of all the degrees issued by the high cost liberal arts schools, 

and govt subsidizing the loans means the cost goes up and up and up

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42 minutes ago, GockeS said:

the student loan crisis is in part due to a degree in something that doesn't pay, translate etc... 

think of all the degrees issued by the high cost liberal arts schools, 

and govt subsidizing the loans means the cost goes up and up and up

Exactly right - there is a lack of real world value in those degrees. That said, I'm not sure that notion applies to wrestlers, but maybe there's a large community of 14th century French poetry majors in the wrestling community.

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On 12/7/2020 at 2:46 PM, IronChef said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. The kids who really have trouble are the ones who don't go to college OR trade school as well as those who start college and drop out/fail out. More completed education is never bad. I don't think there are a lot of kid who graduated from college and it was a mistake for them to attend. There are definitely kids out there who went to college, didn't make it, and should have probably gone to trade school instead. 

Which is why we need more 10th-12th grade trade schools.  These kids don't even want to go to school at 16 years old.  I hire these guys and all say they wished they had a 3 year trade school to go to instead of the 1 year they went to.  Keep in mind 10-12 trade schools still teach the basic fundamentals like english, math, etc...

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Colleges should only have sports that are supported by private donations and revenue. Or perhaps no sports at all.

It’s absurd that colleges force students to borrow money in order to pay into athletic budgets that exist to provide other students with fun.  It’s also absurd that taxpayers are similarly forced to subsidize others’ fun. 

At the end of the day, school should be about kids obtaining job skills, and not about forcing students and taxpayers to pay for others’ fun. 

I thought Americans hated redistributing wealth like that.

Edited by Katie

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On 12/6/2020 at 3:36 PM, IronChef said:


I don't understand why you post here. I'm not being sarcastic or mean. You just seem like you don't really like wrestling. You've made multiple posts like this over the years, including your opposition to wrestlers taking extra college seasons if they are allowed. Do you watch wrestling regularly? Are you a fan of any athlete or team?

Coached HS/college 30 years

Rutgers season ticket holder

Both sons now coach

Not afraid to speak my mind

Thanks for tracking my posts.   I consider it an honor  

 

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19 hours ago, Katie said:

Colleges should only have sports that are supported by private donations and revenue. Or perhaps no sports at all.

It’s absurd that colleges force students to borrow money in order to pay into athletic budgets that exist to provide other students with fun.  It’s also absurd that taxpayers are similarly forced to subsidize others’ fun. 

At the end of the day, school should be about kids obtaining job skills, and not about forcing students and taxpayers to pay for others’ fun. 

I thought Americans hated redistributing wealth like that.

Do you extend the same thought to arts and academic departments? Do you extend the same thought to high schools? Schools are diverse environments. I think it's healthy when a school support arts, athletics, a variety of academic departments, and so on. The tuition or taxpayer money of a particular individual helps support all these things, even though they may not care for sports, arts, many academic departments, etc. That doesn't mean that every sport or art or subject should be in every school, but I think it is healthy when these things are part of a school culture. 

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3 hours ago, Return of Aztec said:

Do you extend the same thought to arts and academic departments? Do you extend the same thought to high schools? Schools are diverse environments. I think it's healthy when a school support arts, athletics, a variety of academic departments, and so on. The tuition or taxpayer money of a particular individual helps support all these things, even though they may not care for sports, arts, many academic departments, etc. That doesn't mean that every sport or art or subject should be in every school, but I think it is healthy when these things are part of a school culture. 

You are literally saying you think the government should forcibly take my money to pay for other people to have fun.

Edited by Katie

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