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Steveson retiring after this year?

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Bruce was a one time NCAA champ and made his first world team a year after college. So it’s certainly possible to catch Bruce. I don’t think he gets close. Not only the longevity he would need, but I also don’t see him beating the top 2 anytime soon, plus you have the young Iranian coming up. But it’s definitely possible. And it’s not at all crazy for people to be of the opinion or even is “on pace”, given that he has accomplished more internationally at this stage than any American HWT before him. I just don’t think he’ll get there. 

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47 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

So you concede the point. He is currently the most accomplished US heavyweight for his age which is why many think he will become the best ever. 

And I will concede that it doesn't mean much until he does it. Like I previously said, this is a fun fan forum thing to talk about and no reason to get so defensive.

For argument's sake, I'll stipulate that his third place true freshman NCAA, Final X appearance, and victory over Gwiz in a dual meet make him the most accomplished U.S. heavyweight for his age.  I think that most of the criticisms here don't stem from that; instead, they result from  annoyance over his retirement statements in his tweet and interview, and the way they were done -- which seem to be consistent with the same kind of lack of focus that characterized his disappointing losses to Cassar and his getting entangled in off the mat problems, and which demonstrate why many of us are skeptical that he will come close to turning his considerable skills into Gwiz's career so far, let alone succeed in becoming the best ever.  

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1 hour ago, drag it said:

For argument's sake, I'll stipulate that his third place true freshman NCAA, Final X appearance, and victory over Gwiz in a dual meet make him the most accomplished U.S. heavyweight for his age.  I think that most of the criticisms here don't stem from that; instead, they result from  annoyance over his retirement statements in his tweet and interview, and the way they were done -- which seem to be consistent with the same kind of lack of focus that characterized his disappointing losses to Cassar and his getting entangled in off the mat problems, and which demonstrate why many of us are skeptical that he will come close to turning his considerable skills into Gwiz's career so far, let alone succeed in becoming the best ever.  

Mocco?

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I also don’t see him beating the top 2 anytime soon

Since the 2019 world team trials he has beaten #1 Gwiz, #3 Nelson, #4 Bradley, jr. world champ Parris* (dominant but in folkstyle). So I must ask why you don't see him winning matches that he has in fact won?

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2 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Since the 2019 world team trials he has beaten #1 Gwiz, #3 Nelson, #4 Bradley, jr. world champ Parris* (dominant but in folkstyle). So I must ask why you don't see him winning matches that he has in fact won?

By top 2 I meant THE top 2: Akgul and Petro

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1 hour ago, drag it said:

For argument's sake, I'll stipulate that his third place true freshman NCAA, Final X appearance, and victory over Gwiz in a dual meet make him the most accomplished U.S. heavyweight for his age.  I think that most of the criticisms here don't stem from that; instead, they result from  annoyance over his retirement statements in his tweet and interview, and the way they were done -- which seem to be consistent with the same kind of lack of focus that characterized his disappointing losses to Cassar and his getting entangled in off the mat problems, and which demonstrate why many of us are skeptical that he will come close to turning his considerable skills into Gwiz's career so far, let alone succeed in becoming the best ever.  

All fair. I'm not invested either way. My point was that there are a lot of reasons people think he could end up the GOAT. If I felt confident he would commit to that path I might agree. We'll see.

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8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

By top 2 I meant THE top 2: Akgul and Petro

Ahh got it. Yeah, no one is touching either of them for a while. The drop-off will be steep and sudden the day the rest of the world catches up but today ain't that day and neither is tomorrow

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Who said I am defensive? You guys did. I'm just engaging in "fun" talk that disagrees with your claim that Steveson is on a path to be Hwt. GOAT, something he can't really possibly ever really attain given Baumgartner's vast accomplishments. He hasn't even made a Sr. level world team yet. He's good, so let's just enjoy that aspect of his wrestling. 

There's no justification for this statement. Gable could absolutely still outdo Bruce's career. 

And one of your contributions was to attack the idea of projecting at all, which renders the whole convo moot. That's my critique. Your reasons for thinking he won't be the GOAT are valid, but just as much projection as the arguments for why he will.

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21 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

There's no justification for this statement. Gable could absolutely still outdo Bruce's career. 

And one of your contributions was to attack the idea of projecting at all, which renders the whole convo moot. That's my critique. Your reasons for thinking he won't be the GOAT are valid, but just as much projection as the arguments for why he will.

Any Hwt. today, in theory, could out do Baumgartner. That is all that is, though, a theory. This includes Gable S. And it was only brought up because of the absurdity of claiming someone is "on pace" to do something when he's literally not even made one world team. 

In theory anyone could do anything in this sport, but putting people on the path to become GOAT when they have literally done zilch is amusing at best. 

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10 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Any Hwt. today, in theory, could out do Baumgartner. That is all that is, though, a theory. This includes Gable S. And it was only brought up because of the absurdity of claiming someone is "on pace" to do something when he's literally not even made one world team. 

In theory anyone could do anything in this sport, but putting people on the path to become GOAT when they have literally done zilch is amusing at best. 

A Junior world title is zilch?  Making FinalX as a teenager is zilch?  3rd as a true freshman is zilch? 51-2 in his first 2 seasons, with one being robbed of NCAA’s where he was HEAVILY favored is zilch?
 

 Let’s be clear NO heavyweight had accomplished as much as him at his age.  THAT is why some of us consider his “pace” as being really special. Plus, the simple fact that he is obviously REALLY good at a very deep weight. 

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22 hours ago, Lurker said:

Mocco was a runner up as a freshman as opposed to 3rd, but Mocco didn’t have the world titles to go with it. Gable actually won his junior world title as a cadet...

Those two freshman would have been an excellent match. I'd take Mocco by a footsweep.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

A Junior world title is zilch?  Making FinalX as a teenager is zilch?  3rd as a true freshman is zilch? 51-2 in his first 2 seasons, with one being robbed of NCAA’s where he was HEAVILY favored is zilch?
 

 Let’s be clear NO heavyweight had accomplished as much as him at his age.  THAT is why some of us consider his “pace” as being really special. Plus, the simple fact that he is obviously REALLY good at a very deep weight. 

Not worth it at this point. TBar doesn't like it because he wants to believe Kerk will be the guy (and he very well could be). If Gable wore blue and white, TBar would never shut up about him.

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Not worth it at this point. TBar doesn't like it because he wants to believe Kerk will be the guy (and he very well could be). If Gable wore blue and white, TBar would never shut up about him.

You are projecting again. This isn't about the laundry they wear, its about putting your cart before the horse. 

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Not worth it at this point. TBar doesn't like it because he wants to believe Kerk will be the guy (and he very well could be). If Gable wore blue and white, TBar would never shut up about him.

He gets testy anytime someone who is/was/could be a rival to a penn state athlete/team is talked about in a positive light.  Hundreds of examples throughout this and the international board.  I don't think its so much Kerk as it is bothering him that people are talking positive about him when he lost to Cassar, but people are not seeing the same potential with Cassar as they are with Gable.  Like I said, hundreds of examples.  He can't take it so he has to come in and bring them down.  It's a defense mechanism.  So sad.

Edited by Lurker

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17 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

At the Sr. level, yes. Zilch, zilch and zilch. Wonderful age group accomplishments, though. 

When someone's senior level career is over, and you want to talk about how great their career was, yes those accomplishments mean zilch.  When talking about how good a 20 year old could possibly be, as they are starting their senior level career, those accomplishments do not mean zilch because those accomplishments are exactly what you look at when trying to project how good a 20 year old could possibly be.  So being that by age 20 he had accomplished more than any heavyweight before him, using those accomplishments to project how good a 20 year old could possibly be, is far from absurd. (Again, recall I do not think he will make it to GOAT status) If you're metric for projecting what could possibly happen is whether or not it has happened......well we might as well just cancel out looking at what someone's potential could be.  Hell cancel predictions, betting sporting events, all kinds of stuff like that.  They haven't happened yet, so its absurd to even discuss....right?

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

When someone's senior level career is over, and you want to talk about how great their career was, yes those accomplishments mean zilch.  When talking about how good a 20 year old could possibly be, as they are starting their senior level career, those accomplishments do not mean zilch because those accomplishments are exactly what you look at when trying to project how good a 20 year old could possibly be.  So being that by age 20 he had accomplished more than any heavyweight before him, using those accomplishments to project how good a 20 year old could possibly be, is far from absurd. (Again, recall I do not think he will make it to GOAT status) If you're metric for projecting what could possibly happen is whether or not it has happened......well we might as well just cancel out looking at what someone's potential could be.  Hell cancel predictions, betting sporting events, all kinds of stuff like that.  They haven't happened yet, so its absurd to even discuss....right?

Lurker, you unwittingly make my point here by morphing their prior assertions of Gable being "on a path to be the GOAT" OR "not unreasonable to believe he would be the GOAT" to now it merely being a "could possibly be" situation.  I agree, he "could possibly be" almost anything. Fill in the blank however you wish. Do the same for any other wrestler while you are at it, because the same could be said for anyone. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Lurker, you unwittingly make my point here by morphing their prior assertions of Gable being "on a path to be the GOAT" OR "not unreasonable to believe he would be the GOAT" to now it merely being a "could possibly be" situation.  I agree, he "could possibly be" almost anything. Fill in the blank however you wish. Do the same for any other wrestler while you are at it, because the same could be said for anyone. 

Yeah I don't really think I'm making your point at all.  Yes I changed the terms from on pace to could possibly be, but only because you seemed so hard up on the terminology of "on pace".  If you are saying you can't see the difference in talking about "just anyone", and talking about a specific person who has accomplished more at his point in time than anyone before him, I say sure you can, you're just being silly because of your stubborn vile for anyone who dare try to rival a nittany lion.  

So let's talk about 'on pace' for a second.  What is 'on pace'?  It is a measure or reference to where you are at a given point in time, relative to where you started and where you want to go.  It can be used in different contexts such has how fast one is running a mile, or what kind of time one is making while driving across the country. I think we can all agree that in this particular case, we are talking about level of progression and accomplishment. And at this particular point in time (and its not like we're talking about Stevo in third grade here) he has outpaced all of the HWT greats before him in terms of accomplishments.  Bruce did not win age group world titles, Bruce did not make the finals of the senior world team trials after his freshman year in college, Bruce did not beat the two time world medalist after his second year in college (relevant to his level of progression).  So he has in fact outpaced the current GOAT at this particular time. He is in fact.....on pace. It's not an absurd opinion, actually its not even an opinion at all.  It is in fact the English language.  And just like you don't give credit of a five minute mile to the guy who was on pace for four but lost it at the end, no one is giving Gable credit of currently being the goat.  Just acknowledging that his level of accomplishment and progression has put him on that pace to this point.

I would prefer not a big back and forth so I'll just leave you with one question.....how is it again that I'm making your point?                 Go Lions! WE ARE!!!

 

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5 hours ago, headshuck said:

 

Could have at least told us to fast forward to the last minute.   Whole lotta nothing before that.

Definitely prefer the new breed of heavyweights...  (and I went to a camp where Mocco was a clinician...dude was a monster)

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Could have at least told us to fast forward to the last minute.   Whole lotta nothing before that.
Definitely prefer the new breed of heavyweights...  (and I went to a camp where Mocco was a clinician...dude was a monster)

Think of it as 7 minutes you didn’t spend on Twitter.

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