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Wrestling from space: JO

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JO has always wrestled from space, and he has never realized the success that many thought he would have on the senior level. Is there a connection between the two? Who are some recent world champs/medalists who wrestle almost exclusively from space?

The strategy seems to create close matches and a small margin for error. Stand there, look at the guy for the majority of the match, and fire off an attack based entirely on foot work. Sounds flawed. It's not like you are going to sneak up on your opponent. He's standing right in front of you.

Edited by jackwebster

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JO has always wrestled from space, and he has never realized the success that many thought he would have on the senior level. Is there a connection between the two? Who are some recent world champs/medalists who wrestle almost exclusively from space? The strategy seems to create close matches and a small margin for error. Stand there, look at the guy for the majority of the match, and fire off an attack based almost exclusively on foot work. Sounds flawed. It's not like you are going to sneak up on your opponent. He's standing right in front of you. 

 

JB can certainly hand fight, but a lot of his scoring comes from space. Especially early in his international career when his blast double was unstoppable. J'den also wrestles a lot from space and has many close matches. Several of his losses were very close, but I would say they were a result of him being a bit tentative rather than the style costing him. He's increased his tenacity and won two world championships as a result.   

 

A counter example would be Metcalf. He wrestled a very aggressive, hands on style and he never reached the level many thought he would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

JO has always wrestled from space, and he has never realized the success that many thought he would have on the senior level. Is there a connection between the two? Who are some recent world champs/medalists who wrestle almost exclusively from space?

The strategy seems to create close matches and a small margin for error. Stand there, look at the guy for the majority of the match, and fire off an attack based almost exclusively on foot work. Sounds flawed. It's not like you are going to sneak up on your opponent. He's standing right in front of you.

Fake fake fake fake but barely any actual shots. You can win from space but you have to actually attack. 

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21 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

JB can certainly hand fight, but a lot of his scoring comes from space. Especially early in his international career when his blast double was unstoppable. J'den also wrestles a lot from space and has many close matches. Several of his losses were very close, but I would say they were a result of him being a bit tentative rather than the style costing him. He's increased his tenacity and won two world championships as a result.   

 

A counter example would be Metcalf. He wrestled a very aggressive, hands on style and he never reached the level many thought he would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JB was what I was thinking too. He just had the ability (and some luck . . . Thinking particularly of the Tsargush match in his first World run) to seal the deal in close matches, to flurry those last thirty seconds of a period. One difference I see between JO and JB is that JB's counter-offense/reshot after his intial attacks from space is unmatched. JO (like Coleman Scott) tends to just push the man away/restart after a failed attack from space.

Edited by jackwebster

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JO might be the best wrestler to have absolutely zero credentials internationally. The guy is already 30 years old, so it's not like he has a lot of time left. Pantaleo did wrestle a great match though, so maybe we should give him more credit instead of thinking it was a tactical error on JO's part. 

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1 minute ago, WrestleNJ said:

JO might be the best wrestler to have absolutely zero credentials internationally. The guy is already 30 years old, so it's not like he has a lot of time left. Pantaleo did wrestle a great match though, so maybe we should give him more credit instead of thinking it was a tactical error on JO's part. 

Bet. I was just thinking that most of JO's matches look like the one with Pantaleo. 

When has that two-arm shoulder shove worked? What's it supposed to do? I think it was in a Metcalf match, but I seem to recall JO two-arm shoving himself to two passivity calls. (I could be confusing this with a Coleman Scott match . . . He does the same thing)

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26 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Fake fake fake fake but barely any actual shots. You can win from space but you have to actually attack. 

On YouTube, there's a UPenn tech clinic with Dave Schultz. He said that if the the guy doesn't flinch after the second fake, go ahead and take the shot. 

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4 minutes ago, HokieHWT said:

Because I’m dense, I thought he had become a Guardian in the US Space Force.

Need more coffee, or sleep, or meth.

What's the Brands quote from the Hokeye era? Something about looking for the best competition in the galaxy?

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3 hours ago, jackwebster said:

What's the Brands quote from the Hokeye era? Something about looking for the best competition in the galaxy?

"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal."

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Burroughs handfighting and ability to actually bang in the pocket are extremely underrated. Burroughs also uses the prospect of looking like he is going to tie up again as a type of fake. Which works because he actually is willing to tie -up. He uses space as a tool in concert with tie ups. 
 

If you listen to any of JOs stuff it also looks like he overthinks a lot and “seems” like he wants  to be the slickest guy not necessarily the most effective.

I also think for lots of reasons people criminally underrate Burroughs’ technical acumen and wrestling IQ from a technique standpoint. It’s a nice short hand to know someone’s wrestling knowledge and IQ though

 

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"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal."
Intergalactic!

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

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Wrestling from space is consistently the number one set up at the world championships (at least from the last data that I have seen - Zeke Jones used to compile this stuff). JO’s fakes are really good and are better set ups than anyone else at the weight has... look at the reactions he was getting. The bottom line is you do have to pull the trigger at some point though, which he usually does just enough. I think Mike Mal was right when he said Pantaleo planned to react to every single one and never relax. Incredible discipline on his part and it won him the match. Most don’t have that discipline but if they do, JO needs to find a solution. I’d look at how JB scores in his sprints...keep good head position and take a full shot just to force a reaction, then look to reshot or go behind. 

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Thanks for the correction. Data don't lie. I wonder why I get a different impression re the efficacy of attacking from space. 

2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

Wrestling from space is consistently the number one set up at the world championships (at least from the last data that I have seen - Zeke Jones used to compile this stuff). JO’s fakes are really good and are better set ups than anyone else at the weight has... look at the reactions he was getting. The bottom line is you do have to pull the trigger at some point though, which he usually does just enough. I think Mike Mal was right when he said Pantaleo planned to react to every single one and never relax. Incredible discipline on his part and it won him the match. Most don’t have that discipline but if they do, JO needs to find a solution. I’d look at how JB scores in his sprints...keep good head position and take a full shot just to force a reaction, then look to reshot or go behind. 

 

Edited by jackwebster

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A few thoughts come to mind: 

1. "Americans are playing football while the rest of the world is playing rugby." 

2. "In America you're taught a single leg. In Russia you learn a backflip"

As a country we're doing more and more to give our kids/athletes the foundation of gymnastics and athleticism, but we haven't figured out yet know how to teach proper hand fighting from the earliest of ages, or even in college.  

The solution for JO, and other Americans on the brink of greatness, is learning to fight in a phone booth.

As an example, Kyle Dake did this before breaking his back --- he went to the OTC and worked with the Greco Team.

 

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2 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Thanks for the correction. Data don't lie. I wonder why I get a different impression re the efficacy of attacking from space. 

 

I thought the same thing when I first heard that, but when I started paying more attention to high level international wrestling it became apparent. I think there’s two main reasons that, at first glance, we get the impression shooting from space doesn’t work well.
1. American bias - our style is typically more of a brawler style and we tend to get the impression that we need to be constantly tying up to score.

2. Its more difficult to master wrestling from space. The timing and speed required is something we typically only see in elite athletes. I’m sure if there was data for high school wrestling, the number one set up would not be from space... probably not for college either. We see youth wrestlers dive in at legs and take bad shots so we as coaches beat it into them that they need to set up their shots without teaching them that fakes and motion can be a great set up.

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2 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Thanks for the correction. Data don't lie. I wonder why I get a different impression re the efficacy of attacking from space. 

 

Because Americans, especially bjj and “freestyle” guys (usually dad or youth coaches 9/10 of the time). Tend to fetishize “throws” and  what they “think” of when they think of “technical wrestling”. That attitude seeps into how people look at and think of freestyle. “Most” people’s impression of freestyle is based on highlight videos and old film. 
 

Because of this. Instead of actually looking at and discussing across the board the actual things Americans need to work on in neutral. Such as more emphasis on touch and go setups , re shots/counter offense, not spending hours on knee over toe and emphasizing exploding through finishes and going for 4 pointers..

the things the actual Olympic coaches and qualified freestyle guys/coaches studying current international film.. are focusing on.. because that’s what’s actually being USED. 
 

you get screeching about “the throws, the throws!!!!!”

 

 

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6 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Because Americans, especially bjj and “freestyle” guys (usually dad or youth coaches 9/10 of the time). Tend to fetishize “throws” and  what they “think” of when they think of “technical wrestling”. That attitude seeps into how people look at and think of freestyle. “Most” people’s impression of freestyle is based on highlight videos and old film. 
 

Because of this. Instead of actually looking at and discussing across the board the actual things Americans need to work on in neutral. Such as more emphasis on touch and go setups , re shots/counter offense, not spending hours on knee over toe and emphasizing exploding through finishes and going for 4 pointers..

the things the actual Olympic coaches and qualified freestyle guys/coaches studying current international film.. are focusing on.. because that’s what’s actually being USED. 
 

you get screeching about “the throws, the throws!!!!!”

 

 

To be honest, I've never been in a room that didn't explicitly discourage throws. (Lota of negatives in there . . . Sorry). 

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23 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I thought the same thing when I first heard that, but when I started paying more attention to high level international wrestling it became apparent. I think there’s two main reasons that, at first glance, we get the impression shooting from space doesn’t work well.
1. American bias - our style is typically more of a brawler style and we tend to get the impression that we need to be constantly tying up to score.

2. Its more difficult to master wrestling from space. The timing and speed required is something we typically only see in elite athletes. I’m sure if there was data for high school wrestling, the number one set up would not be from space... probably not for college either. We see youth wrestlers dive in at legs and take bad shots so we as coaches beat it into them that they need to set up their shots without teaching them that fakes and motion can be a great set up.

Shots from space and loose ties, or brief ties (club and go) are a much higher percentage of score in high school and college than most people think. It’s one of those things where you have to remind yourself to look at what the athletes are actually using to score in matches not what’s practiced the most. 
 

A very high level coach told me me to focus on teaching kids to explode through finishes and driving head through, from no matter where they were. And while teaching footwork. Emphasize that they need to get chest on thigh and expose through. Instead of the “traditional” way of teaching shots. It has made a world of difference in actual scoring 

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4 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

To be honest, I've never been in a room that didn't explicitly discourage throws. (Lota of negatives in there . . . Sorry). 

I teach throws. A lot. I never said not to teach them. I never said to discourage them. 

I’m referring to the way a lot of people who talk about freestyle and American wrestlers make everything about the hand fighting and throws rather than what the actual wrestling is showing

You deliberately ignored the main point. 

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36 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I teach throws. A lot. I never said not to teach them. I never said to discourage them. 

I’m referring to the way a lot of people who talk about freestyle and American wrestlers make everything about the hand fighting and throws rather than what the actual wrestling is showing

You deliberately ignored the main point. 

I love the topic of throws, but respectfully I'm still not sure what your point is regarding throws.

I consider throws pretty rare in freestyle (and folkstyle). Sure, throws can be risky but I think there's a time and place to surprise opponents and hit throws. Look how perfect Tiare's throw was on an over aggressive opponent Friday night. Went right with the flow and physical momentum of the match. Beautiful to watch, plus the pin!

Couple of other examples: Anthony Valencia at Jr Worlds destroys his first two opponents and is winning his third match handily, then at the right time TUR pancakes Anthony for the fall. Kyven Gadson hits the "Gadson" and sticks Kyle Snyder at NCAA's. Gable Steveson wins 2017 Jr World gold, then at 2018 Jr World's UZB throws Gable for the pin. Actually in that match, UZB tried a lateral drop but Gable countered and scored 2 and almost pinned UZB. Then back on their feet, UZB hits a double overhook throw and pins Gable. There are many other examples, obviously.

So my point about throws, is that they are not used enough and they can be an excellent change-up to leg attacks, head banging, fakes when the timing and mat strategy is right. Here's that Gable match with the 2 throws:

     

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41 minutes ago, 2td3nf said:

I love the topic of throws, but respectfully I'm still not sure what your point is regarding throws.

I consider throws pretty rare in freestyle (and folkstyle). Sure, throws can be risky but I think there's a time and place to surprise opponents and hit throws. Look how perfect Tiare's throw was on an over aggressive opponent Friday night. Went right with the flow and physical momentum of the match. Beautiful to watch, plus the pin!

Couple of other examples: Anthony Valencia at Jr Worlds destroys his first two opponents and is winning his third match handily, then at the right time TUR pancakes Anthony for the fall. Kyven Gadson hits the "Gadson" and sticks Kyle Snyder at NCAA's. Gable Steveson wins 2017 Jr World gold, then at 2018 Jr World's UZB throws Gable for the pin. Actually in that match, UZB tried a lateral drop but Gable countered and scored 2 and almost pinned UZB. Then back on their feet, UZB hits a double overhook throw and pins Gable. There are many other examples, obviously.

So my point about throws, is that they are not used enough and they can be an excellent change-up to leg attacks, head banging, fakes when the timing and mat strategy is right. Here's that Gable match with the 2 throws:

     

I didn’t say they weren’t a good change up. 
 

Again. The point is that the supposed freestyle experts keep gushing and gashing over the throws and the hand fighting... and don’t ever really acknowledge or understand the actual things that need to be worked on. 
 

I said the low tier wannabe wrestling intellectuals fetishize throws and what “ they” think of as “good technique”. 

 

I double checked. Nowhere in my post did I say throws were bad. Nowhere did I say they weren’t a tool.

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