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Wrestling from space: JO

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1 hour ago, RED said:

So, are you guys differentiating throws from trips?  In my book, a throw is not a trip or a sweep.  Trips and sweeps are far less risky.  Or are you all treating them as one and the same?

In a technical basis.. no.

Do I group them into the categories of techniques, including throws.. a certain kind of “expert” gushes over when talking about how we should improve our freestyle. Yes.

Again. Look at the actual scoring, setups, and techniques used to score at senior worlds. Quite frankly, the actual data backs techniques and style much closer to.. or just like, what Burroughs does.

I’ll restate clearly. I teach throws, I teach trips, I encourage their use. I don’t have a problem with them per say. 
 

What I have a problem with. Is the obsession. And wannabe intellectualism with a certain kind of American freestyle fan., that obsesses over throws, trips and what they think of as “proper” technique. Who almost always talk about Burroughs style a certain way.. but then ignore that at worlds.. what is actually used in actual high level freestyle. 

These type of fans almost always are bjj guys, youth coaches, coaches who never wrestled beyond high school, or dad coaches who never wrestled. who are also a active part of the youth wrestling system that over competes and makes most kids scared to take risks.

Every high level coach I know of. Who actually know freestyle and actually study current freestyle. Are focusing on the actual changes and techniques needed. 
 

 

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You should have proper stance, motion, footwork and a good grasp of how to hand fight before you ever attempt a throw. It would be like building a house without walls but putting on a roof. The basics work. If you can't hand fight you're going to lose. JO and JB can do it but don't all the time for varying reasons. I agree that some clubs do teach throws and overemphasize them. It's good to know at least 1 or 2 if you need it, but that should be reserved for necessary times, not be the main basis of your offense.

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I mostly agree with what you are saying @jp157 but in general, I find most clubs undervalue throws. Maybe it’s different from region to region, but I find it similar to what @jackwebster said that most coaches openly discourage them. Maybe it’s just my area too... in PA we are so focused on folk style that many clubs don’t even teach freestyle and Greco at all :-/

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20 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I thought the same thing when I first heard that, but when I started paying more attention to high level international wrestling it became apparent. I think there’s two main reasons that, at first glance, we get the impression shooting from space doesn’t work well.
1. American bias - our style is typically more of a brawler style and we tend to get the impression that we need to be constantly tying up to score.

2. Its more difficult to master wrestling from space. The timing and speed required is something we typically only see in elite athletes. I’m sure if there was data for high school wrestling, the number one set up would not be from space... probably not for college either. We see youth wrestlers dive in at legs and take bad shots so we as coaches beat it into them that they need to set up their shots without teaching them that fakes and motion can be a great set up.

Was thinking about this some more. I wonder how the data miners were defining "from space." Is a David Taylor ankle-pick from space? Is the Trent Hidlay running underhook attack from space? What about that snap-drag to outside-step head-outside single that Sajidov burned Sanderson with? Or that thing Gatsalov does when he puts up a loose collar-tie on his lead-leg side, waits for the guy to over-tie, then shoots an outside-step head-outside single? Sadulaev's (or Kenny Monday's) running fireman's? Etc. 

Or, it could be that my original question -- premised on the idea that you can isolate a scoring sequence from the total match context -- is incoherent. That is, a successful attack from space may only work because the guy had been taking ground via control-ties, clubs, "fightinginaphonebooth" for the first minute. Is that really "an attack from space"?

Edited by jackwebster

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21 hours ago, 2td3nf said:

I love the topic of throws, but respectfully I'm still not sure what your point is regarding throws.

I consider throws pretty rare in freestyle (and folkstyle). Sure, throws can be risky but I think there's a time and place to surprise opponents and hit throws. Look how perfect Tiare's throw was on an over aggressive opponent Friday night. Went right with the flow and physical momentum of the match. Beautiful to watch, plus the pin!

Couple of other examples: Anthony Valencia at Jr Worlds destroys his first two opponents and is winning his third match handily, then at the right time TUR pancakes Anthony for the fall. Kyven Gadson hits the "Gadson" and sticks Kyle Snyder at NCAA's. Gable Steveson wins 2017 Jr World gold, then at 2018 Jr World's UZB throws Gable for the pin. Actually in that match, UZB tried a lateral drop but Gable countered and scored 2 and almost pinned UZB. Then back on their feet, UZB hits a double overhook throw and pins Gable. There are many other examples, obviously.

So my point about throws, is that they are not used enough and they can be an excellent change-up to leg attacks, head banging, fakes when the timing and mat strategy is right. Here's that Gable match with the 2 throws:

     

"Then back on their feet, UZB hits a double overhook throw and pins Gable." -   I do think you over simplified that sequence - Gable went for the inside trip while Rakhimov was controlling the double overhooks and that is how he ended up on his back and got stuck.  

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3 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Was thinking about this some more. I wonder how the data miners were defining "from space." Is a David Taylor ankle-pick from space? Is the Trent Hidlay running underhook attack from space? What about that snap-drag to outside-step head-outside single that Sajidov burned Sanderson with? Or that thing Gatsalov does when he puts up a loose collar-tie on his lead-leg side, waits for the guy to over-tie, then shoots an outside-step head-outside single? Sadulaev's (or Kenny Monday's) running fireman's? Etc. 

Or, it could be that my original question -- premised on the idea that you can isolate a scoring sequence from the total match context -- is incoherent. That is, a successful attack from space may only work because the guy had been taking ground via control-ties, clubs, "fightinginaphonebooth" for the first minute. Is that really "an attack from space"?

In every study I know of space was either it’s own thing, or grouped with touch and go type setups, that were from”close range” but not set up from close in hand fighting or tie. 
 

Some of the studies included “loose ties” like a wrist. 
 

none of the studies used your.. “examples”. 

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16 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I mostly agree with what you are saying @jp157 but in general, I find most clubs undervalue throws. Maybe it’s different from region to region, but I find it similar to what @jackwebster said that most coaches openly discourage them. Maybe it’s just my area too... in PA we are so focused on folk style that many clubs don’t even teach freestyle and Greco at all :-/

This is where this discussion may go from a vigorous technique debate. To something else. 
 

I have had the opportunity to coach and be around wrestling in several states east of the Mississippi. My opinion is based on seeing general trends, differences and commonalities between regions. Some places were freestyle fanatics, some were folkstyle fanatics. So my opinion is not based on hearsay. That being said
 

I think the fundamental root of most of these problems, both on a technical level and health of the sport level. Comes from the current club and dad coach culture that has been taking over wrestling in the US in general. None of those problems would be fixed by switching to freestyle.

The most relevant way it affects this discussion is, for every compound coach in Georgia, Spencer Lee’s club coach in PA, or Humpreys club in Indiana.. at leaf 5-10 are nowhere near as qualified and/or are dads and/or never wrestled.

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3 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Was thinking about this some more. I wonder how the data miners were defining "from space." Is a David Taylor ankle-pick from space? Is the Trent Hidlay running underhook attack from space? What about that snap-drag to outside-step head-outside single that Sajidov burned Sanderson with? Or that thing Gatsalov does when he puts up a loose collar-tie on his lead-leg side, waits for the guy to over-tie, then shoots an outside-step head-outside single? Sadulaev's (or Kenny Monday's) running fireman's? Etc. 

Or, it could be that my original question -- premised on the idea that you can isolate a scoring sequence from the total match context -- is incoherent. That is, a successful attack from space may only work because the guy had been taking ground via control-ties, clubs, "fightinginaphonebooth" for the first minute. Is that really "an attack from space"?

 

These are exactly my questions about this whole discussion.  "From space" to me, especially in the context of JO's style, means without a tie-up based almost entirely on footwork and stutter fakes, which I don't think is effective at all on the international level.  If you take "From Space" to mean while entering a tie-up or right upon securing a tie-up, I would agree that this is likely where the most scoring happens in freestyle. 

A concept I think is extremely useful, moreso than level-of-space, is who is working harder mentally and physically to maintain their position.  This may sound like an insult, but JB is the best in the world at not wrestling.  By that I mean he basically only wrestles when he wants to and in his best positions.  He has space when he wants to and he has absolutely mastered using things that the opponent does, such as snap downs or collars, to perfectly set up his shots because he is not "fighting" them, but allowing them to bring him to his position.  Same in ties, he rarely scores from his tie-up, but he neutralizes them beautifully and forces them into a frustrated shot because they think "I finally got hold of this guy I have to score" and then he is completely primed to score in the reattack.  He knows he has to win in scrambles and that is the only time he is burning a massive amount of his tank, but so is the other guy, and his "power bar" is never being depleted faster than his opponents. He has complete discipline, composure, and confidence for this strategy and (almost) always has enough left to "go get one" when he needs it.  Even tie-up guys, like a Taylor or a Yazdani, who are doing more "work" than JB on a per second basis, are successful because they are forcing their opponents to do exponentially more.

JO, OTOH, burns a tremendous amount of mental, physical, and emotional energy without forcing his opponents to do more or scoring a tremendous amount of points for his effort.  I agree with the other posters who chalk a lot of this up to nerves and head-space, but I would love to see JO operate from even Cael collar tie or John Smith crouch stance and elbow-tie to reduce his burn rate and make his opponents work harder rather than just call his bluff on his fakes.  Or tie-up enough traditionally that the opponent respects it and he can convert on a reentry with his really outstanding attack technique.

Full caveat that JO is a brilliant wrestling mind who knows infinitely more than I do and wrestling is absurdly difficult, especially at the most difficult weight in the world.

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4 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Was thinking about this some more. I wonder how the data miners were defining "from space." Is a David Taylor ankle-pick from space? Is the Trent Hidlay running underhook attack from space? What about that snap-drag to outside-step head-outside single that Sajidov burned Sanderson with? Or that thing Gatsalov does when he puts up a loose collar-tie on his lead-leg side, waits for the guy to over-tie, then shoots an outside-step head-outside single? Sadulaev's (or Kenny Monday's) running fireman's? Etc. 

Or, it could be that my original question -- premised on the idea that you can isolate a scoring sequence from the total match context -- is incoherent. That is, a successful attack from space may only work because the guy had been taking ground via control-ties, clubs, "fightinginaphonebooth" for the first minute. Is that really "an attack from space"?

Yeah I honestly don’t know exactly how the data was determined. I remember Zeke Jones saying how the go behind surpassed the single leg as the number one takedown in the world, and I recall wondering what constitutes a “go behind”... is it just a down block to go behind or would it include a front headlock or chest wrap to a go behind? I would assume it included all forms. There may be a video somewhere of Zeke explaining the details, but I’d have to do some digging. 
 

Back to original question... I do think JOs fakes are a great setup alone. I don’t think shooting from space has to be preceded by control ties, clubs, etc. However, I do think he needs to pull the trigger more and he needs to have a way to score if the opponent does not relax on his fakes.

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When I think of wrestling from space, I think of JO's mentor, John Smith.  But, the thing about John was he scored from controlled ties as well, mainly duckunders off of controlling the elbow.  In my mind, John changed the sport with his low leg attacks, which came mainly from space.

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When I think of wrestling from space, I think of JO's mentor, John Smith.  But, the thing about John was he scored from controlled ties as well, mainly duckunders off of controlling the elbow.  In my mind, John changed the sport with his low leg attacks, which came mainly from space.

I was thinking the same thing. I would add that a lot of his troubles are coming from the way refs/judges/UWW calls passivity. They do not realize that his jab fakes are just as much of a set up as hard hand fighting from a tie up with your head up. If John Smith were wrestling the same way that he did back in the day he would be cautioned out from matches. It also depends on the (usual terrible) international officiating. I was watching his match with Bajrang at pan ams (I think), and every time he took one step back they were on his case either verbally or officially calling passivity. He would have won if they had given him a few inches to let him wrestle.
These scumbag officials who have never wrestled a match in their life make me sick...always saying “action blue/red” when there is 20 points on the board. They need to go back to Phuket, And in between screwing hookers, they need to clearly define the rules. Right now it just depends on what official crew you get.

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What the.. 


Smith wrestled from ties all the time. By 92 he didn’t score from a (single) low single. He also used an Abas snap regularly. I did a film study of all his scores and attacks once. Watched over 50 matches from 86 through 92. He actually often would hit a post to a straight on head inside single when people were shutting down his elbow control and fakes.

Additionally, the matches smith didn’t tie up a lot and wasn’t attacking at a high rate.. he did get dinged for passivity.

JO doesn’t pull the trigger. At all. Especially if you compare it to smith. JO doesn’t hit low singles that often. 
 

Don’t whine about the rules. Burroughs has adjusted through the rule changes of the last decade and can actually tie up and pull the trigger. 
 

eh before I rant on. TLDR: could people actually watch film beyond the same 5 top YouTube vids
 

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3 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

When I think of wrestling from space, I think of JO's mentor, John Smith.  But, the thing about John was he scored from controlled ties as well, mainly duckunders off of controlling the elbow.  In my mind, John changed the sport with his low leg attacks, which came mainly from space.

I don't know if you are suggesting JS directly taught JO to wrestle from space. As I recall, he was doing that in Middle School. I don't remember low singles but I only saw him a couple times before HS.  I said directly for a reason- who knows whether his early coaches/clinics/camps were JS inspired?

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On 12/19/2020 at 9:46 AM, Crotalus said:

JB can certainly hand fight, but a lot of his scoring comes from space. Especially early in his international career when his blast double was unstoppable. J'den also wrestles a lot from space and has many close matches. Several of his losses were very close, but I would say they were a result of him being a bit tentative rather than the style costing him. He's increased his tenacity and won two world championships as a result.   

 

A counter example would be Metcalf. He wrestled a very aggressive, hands on style and he never reached the level many thought he would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also moving weight classes to a much weaker weight helps. He’s aggressive against lesser competitors, it’s one of the reasons he’s not as popular as many of our less accomplished athletes imo. 

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5 hours ago, RajaThaiKnee said:


I was thinking the same thing. I would add that a lot of his troubles are coming from the way refs/judges/UWW calls passivity. They do not realize that his jab fakes are just as much of a set up as hard hand fighting from a tie up with your head up. If John Smith were wrestling the same way that he did back in the day he would be cautioned out from matches. It also depends on the (usual terrible) international officiating. I was watching his match with Bajrang at pan ams (I think), and every time he took one step back they were on his case either verbally or officially calling passivity. He would have won if they had given him a few inches to let him wrestle.
These scumbag officials who have never wrestled a match in their life make me sick...always saying “action blue/red” when there is 20 points on the board. They need to go back to Phuket, And in between screwing hookers, they need to clearly define the rules. Right now it just depends on what official crew you get.

Have you ever officiated? (And I don’t mean your local kids club matches where you grab wrist bands off the nearest table)

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What the.. 

Smith wrestled from ties all the time. By 92 he didn’t score from a (single) low single. He also used an Abas snap regularly. I did a film study of all his scores and attacks once. Watched over 50 matches from 86 through 92. He actually often would hit a post to a straight on head inside single when people were shutting down his elbow control and fakes.
Additionally, the matches smith didn’t tie up a lot and wasn’t attacking at a high rate.. he did get dinged for passivity.
JO doesn’t pull the trigger. At all. Especially if you compare it to smith. JO doesn’t hit low singles that often. 
 
Don’t whine about the rules. Burroughs has adjusted through the rule changes of the last decade and can actually tie up and pull the trigger. 
 
eh before I rant on. TLDR: could people actually watch film beyond the same 5 top YouTube vids
 

I’ve seen plenty of John Smith tapes that you can’t find anywhere on the internet. People always go to his low single and think that that’s his go to move, But he had a nasty hi Crotch and scored a lot of duck unders from jab fakes and that Elbow control you speak of. His Par Terre(specifically leg lace) was light years ahead of anybody in America right now. John Smith created an entirely new style of wrestling that people thought would never work (I’m sure you know the story). I’ve had to study and emulate Smith back in my coaching days to help wrestlers that could score/defend with his original style that he came up with. And that was during the 56k dial up era. So, now that we’ve established that I know what I’m talking about I will proceed.

That’s how wrestling works. When you wrestle a Russian/Soviet block/elite tie up guy the points don’t come easy. He would have been cautioned out under today’s rules.

Yeah Burroughs has tweaked his style but he was not able to adapt at the 2016 Olympics And has not gotten it done the past two years. He’s won one gold medal in this cycle.

Whining? Ha...I’m calling it like it is. In those matches against Elite wrestlers who were good from a tie (where you say Smith didn’t tie up) he would have been cautioned out today. Smith was commentating a match of Snyders at the World Cup a few years ago and he said “ The referees need to be quiet, and let them wrestle.

Jordan Oliver attacks with the low single. He just doesn’t finish. I believe he would be much more effective if he could wrestle the way that he did in college under international rules. And what I mean by that is that a referee would not be on his case about backing up so that he could attack from a distance.Under the rules today, depending on the referee he is not able to create that distance which is needed to hit a low single. He is trying to hit them from a tie up or tie up distance.

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I don't know if you are suggesting JS directly taught JO to wrestle from space. As I recall, he was doing that in Middle School. I don't remember low singles but I only saw him a couple times before HS.  I said directly for a reason- who knows whether his early coaches/clinics/camps were JS inspired?

No I’m not suggesting that at all. To be honest with you I did not follow Oliver until he was a junior in high school. I suppose it had to be John Smith inspired somehow. He’s from the best state in the nation by far so he catered his style from someone who new there stuff or from camps/clinics as you suggest.

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Have you ever officiated? (And I don’t mean your local kids club matches where you grab wrist bands off the nearest table)

Yes I have MS and HS. I only did it for a few years because I had a lot on my plate at the time. I only refd folk style and I was very liberal with calling stalling, as my high school coach is from Iowa. So I was a collar tie heavy hands guy. However, I do know when a kid is trying to score from taking a step or two back (or wrestling from the outside) as a setup and when he’s trying to stall.

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16 minutes ago, RajaThaiKnee said:


No I’m not suggesting that at all. To be honest with you I did not follow Oliver until he was a junior in high school. I suppose it had to be John Smith inspired somehow. He’s from the best state in the nation by far so he catered his style from someone who new there stuff or from camps/clinics as you suggest.

??? I was quoting/replying to Fadzaev2

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23 hours ago, RajaThaiKnee said:


I was thinking the same thing. I would add that a lot of his troubles are coming from the way refs/judges/UWW calls passivity. They do not realize that his jab fakes are just as much of a set up as hard hand fighting from a tie up with your head up. If John Smith were wrestling the same way that he did back in the day he would be cautioned out from matches. It also depends on the (usual terrible) international officiating. I was watching his match with Bajrang at pan ams (I think), and every time he took one step back they were on his case either verbally or officially calling passivity. He would have won if they had given him a few inches to let him wrestle.
These scumbag officials who have never wrestled a match in their life make me sick...always saying “action blue/red” when there is 20 points on the board. They need to go back to Phuket, And in between screwing hookers, they need to clearly define the rules. Right now it just depends on what official crew you get.

I don't think Bajrang was at Pan Ams.

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19 hours ago, RajaThaiKnee said:


I’ve seen plenty of John Smith tapes that you can’t find anywhere on the internet. People always go to his low single and think that that’s his go to move, But he had a nasty hi Crotch and scored a lot of duck unders from jab fakes and that Elbow control you speak of. His Par Terre(specifically leg lace) was light years ahead of anybody in America right now. John Smith created an entirely new style of wrestling that people thought would never work (I’m sure you know the story). I’ve had to study and emulate Smith back in my coaching days to help wrestlers that could score/defend with his original style that he came up with. And that was during the 56k dial up era. So, now that we’ve established that I know what I’m talking about I will proceed.

That’s how wrestling works. When you wrestle a Russian/Soviet block/elite tie up guy the points don’t come easy. He would have been cautioned out under today’s rules.

Yeah Burroughs has tweaked his style but he was not able to adapt at the 2016 Olympics And has not gotten it done the past two years. He’s won one gold medal in this cycle.

Whining? Ha...I’m calling it like it is. In those matches against Elite wrestlers who were good from a tie (where you say Smith didn’t tie up) he would have been cautioned out today. Smith was commentating a match of Snyders at the World Cup a few years ago and he said “ The referees need to be quiet, and let them wrestle.

Jordan Oliver attacks with the low single. He just doesn’t finish. I believe he would be much more effective if he could wrestle the way that he did in college under international rules. And what I mean by that is that a referee would not be on his case about backing up so that he could attack from a distance.Under the rules today, depending on the referee he is not able to create that distance which is needed to hit a low single. He is trying to hit them from a tie up or tie up distance.

This is a case of whining. The rules are what they are now. 
 

Leaving aside Burroughs’ age. The simple fact is. He has adjusted. Oliver has not. Otherwise Burroughs would get DQ’d for passivity every time he went overseas 
 

If Oliver actually had Smiths attack rate it wouldn’t be an issue. However he’s obsessed with out smarting and out slicking his opponents. 

 

And yes. I’ve coached athletes who wrestle on the outside. They’ve been successful too. It still doesn’t change the reality. Oliver has to adjust or keep losing 
 

 

 

This isn’t so much about you as much as me musing out loud. The amount of people calling Burroughs “washed up”. With 3 senior medal this quad, only with two last second losses to a high quality opponent. Being extensively scouted more than anyone..  it honestly is bemusing. Though the people saying it usually fall into one of two camps. 

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On 12/29/2020 at 1:47 PM, gimpeltf said:

I don't know if you are suggesting JS directly taught JO to wrestle from space. As I recall, he was doing that in Middle School. I don't remember low singles but I only saw him a couple times before HS.  I said directly for a reason- who knows whether his early coaches/clinics/camps were JS inspired?

No, I wasn't suggesting that John taught JO the low leg attacks.  I could see where he might want to recruit kids capable of it though.

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